Reto.Hades

Prototype test: Tank versus Tank

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Reto.Hades    3,433

You can download the prototype client here: http://prototype.heroesandgenerals.com/

To play the tank versus tank map, select all available maps and make sure to play only as tanker.

All other maps are disabled, so you will get an error when trying to join battles as something not-tanker.

 

Deploying the following changes to the Prototype server (Tank vs Tank mode):
- More difficult bots for tank encounter
- Fix: objects becoming black when the outline is activated
- Less XP for killing AI/bots and AI/bot name fixes
- Tank encounter hold the objective for ~5 minutes longer (To make the battles  a little longer)
- Lowered armor HP of vehicles/tanks:

  • Light Armor: 5000 to 2500 per surface
  • Medium Armor: 6000 to 3500 per surface
  • Heavy Armor: 7000 to 5000 per surface
  • Medium Tank Destroyers: 5000 to 2500 per surface
  • Heavy Tank Destroyers: 5000 to 3500 per surface
  • Increased the damage multiplier for damaging ammo and fuel compartments with x2

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Ometron    11

As of version 157212:

Bots are still not a threat to tanks, not the slightest bit actually. Their poor accuracy lets them miss shots with their rocket launchers, even when a tank is less than 20m away. I suggest increasing the accuracy of bots significantly, so they are able to pose an actual threat to tankers. They should reliably hit moving tanks 50+ m away (with a bit of leading their shot), still-standing tanks even to greater distances, around 100m.

At the same time i suggest decreasing the amount of rocket launcher-eqipped bots to maybe just 1/3 of the whole team's infantry. The other 2/3 of the bots should get back some rifles and/or SMGs to fight enemy infantry. All this of course only in the case it is even possible to give bots separate "roles"/weapon loadouts.

If AI behaviour technically allows it: How about make the bots avoid threats they can't fight? For example: rocket launcher-equipped bots will avoid rifle-equipped infantry, while bots with rifles/SMGs will run away from tanks.

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Jacky95    2,351
On 3/12/2019 at 5:27 PM, Ometron said:

Bots are still not a threat to tanks, not the slightest bit actually. Their poor accuracy lets them miss shots with their rocket launchers, even when a tank is less than 20m away

WHY????? They are all over the map! Do you want the same aids at rambo effect on tank vs tank too??

Ai is there to cap the point and to keep the tanks from camping in the obj!

This is tank vs tank and not ai at rambo vs tank player game mode

Edited

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kunalp    1,161

@Reto.Hades

May I suggest that you define the intention of the map/gamemode in your main post above to avoid suggestions on smart AI, bots with smgs and what not which isn't really relevant to the purpose of the map/gamemode.

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Vudu_guy    1,545

Something very weird happened to me on this battle: /M 222991096262039877 /P 3827572571028346145   first death was on  a pershing by 2 bots from the front in less than 2 seconds, after spawning a shirt tank next time my score said i never died.

 

Also bots are really dumb sometimes because they are DEAF!, they need to detect tanks by sound, i sat back in one of their spawns and mauled them as they appear, seems they dont know what  is to be spawncamped.

 

X6pEA1.jpg

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Xeator    743

Bot spam is a bit excessive, it feels like Im playing Quake when the bots are even shooting at each other with their RPGs. Tanks feel better now, but I am pretty sure people will be complaining about Tiger2 OP etc, like they have already been doing.

 

Even if battles are longer I am still sitting in the deploy screen for way too long to spawn.

 

To be honest if real infantry players are not being considered as a replacement for the bots then I would just rather see the game mode revolve around tank vs tank gameplay without the need to kill bots all the time.

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Vudu_guy    1,545

Added: if the gamemode is set to be for  6 players max, please DONT let the game start unbalanced!  5vs5 minimum players to start or the experinece will be really bad.

2 minutes ago, Xeator said:

To be honest if real infantry players are not being considered as a replacement for the bots then I would just rather see the game mode revolve around tank vs tank gameplay without the need to kill bots all the time.

 

Then lets help in figure out a way to prevent players camping and not risking themselves by the urgency of stoping the capture of the objective, in the other thread i suggested way less spawns for tanks and force-spawn feature after X time to not have people "saving" spawn by not spawning themselves.

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Xeator    743

I fail to see why camping is such a bad thing. I mean the game has a kill cam anyway.

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Vudu_guy    1,545
1 minute ago, Xeator said:

I fail to see why camping is such a bad thing. I mean the game has a kill cam anyway.

 

Its not "bad" but can drag the games for hours if the players know what they are doing

For me its ok, but i  dont think many will like that.

Also i got a big question... @Reto.Splixxen what will happen to WF if a bot kills a tank? those will be awarded to the general?...but the general only can send tanks? how that will work, i sense WF sink hole.

Edited

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Vudu_guy    1,545

And how the resourses will be set for stage battles? like they are now with 300+ spawns? its too much. I really think some kind of "wave" deploy must be placed, at least for this mode so we got ride of the long deploying times for tier 3 stuff (as we cant switch to infantry in the meantime) and restric  better tanks to be deployed  later in the game, so no 6 tigers vs 6 ligth tanks at the start (as many new tank players will end here and will get a traumatic experience and leave the game forever). 

 

Then all battles start first with ligth tanks and after X time mediums become available, then TD, HTD and HT close to the end.

 

The "end" can be defined based on the capture timer, so a 80% can be "final" and each tier can appear at X % of that timer. ←OR get rid of the capture point after all, same with the bots, make a predefined time for tank vs tank battle, lets say 20 minutes? then you have the mx time and it can be sub-divided  to set the spawn time for all other tank classes. Thats is based thinking a tank vs tank game is not a "fast" game, maybe the standart 30 min game can be set in stone.

 

 

Some other "variables" can be set, maybe for the losing team so they can deploy 1 tier more sooner, something like that can be fun and counter esasy masacres to increase the odds. 

 

han%2Bsolo.jpg&f=1

Edited

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E=MC2Trooper    58

okay, I managed to destroy my Panther with 3 Panzerwurfmines by hitting fuel and ammo storages, but I wasnt able to destroy neither a hellcat nor a sherman nor a stuart with 3 sticky nades (yes I was hitting the modules). Is this because of damage normalization or does the Panzerwurfmine deal more damage or might it even be a bug? can anybody help me with that?

Anyway I smell the potential for an unpleasant imbalance.

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Jacky95    2,351
2 hours ago, Xeator said:

but I am pretty sure people will be complaining about Tiger2 OP etc, like they have already been doing.

when was it not OP? oh wait..it was kinda balanced when taking out the gun breach stopped firing....when thinking and flanking was rewarded....

43 minutes ago, E=MC2Trooper said:

okay, I managed to destroy my Panther with 3 Panzerwurfmines by hitting fuel and ammo storages, but I wasnt able to destroy neither a hellcat nor a sherman nor a stuart with 3 sticky nades (yes I was hitting the modules). Is this because of damage normalization or does the Panzerwurfmine deal more damage or might it even be a bug? can anybody help me with that?

Anyway I smell the potential for an unpleasant imbalance.

it also depends on what size the module was that you hit.

small ammo rack medium ammo rack or large ammo rack? same with fuel. all do different dmg

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Supermauz_R    242

This is supposed to be a Tank vs Tank game mode, fine. There are bots to establish some kind of actual game flow and action on the cap point, fine. But why are they all armed with AT launchers? It's a bit over the top. If you want to motivate tankers to play on this map and move close to the objective to support their bots capping and defending you can't just copy the anti-tank rambos into this. Reduce the amount of AT-infantry and add some soldiers with SA-rifles, BA-rifles and SMGs instead.

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hchris    240
4 minutes ago, Supermauz_R said:

This is supposed to be a Tank vs Tank game mode, fine. There are bots to establish some kind of actual game flow and action on the cap point, fine. But why are they all armed with AT launchers? It's a bit over the top. If you want to motivate tankers to play on this map and move close to the objective to support their bots capping and defending you can't just copy the anti-tank rambos into this. Reduce the amount of AT-infantry and add some soldiers with SA-rifles, BA-rifles and SMGs instead.

Agreed, think so too. Set up the bots to simulate realistic infantry squads with different load outs and roles (rifles, smgs, at weapons etc). This will make the experience a lot more realistic. It looks kinda strange to only see rocket armed bots....

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Jacky95    2,351

@Reto.Hades

3 shots from a m10 wolverine killed my t34-76. guess what did it damage ? destroyed one track and no other internals hit !!!!!

 

If this is intentional you guys just scrapped 1 year's of work. you guys scrapped armor 2.0. GG

 

i fkin give up

 

Armor HP was fine! The dmg caused by destroying fuel and ammo was too low. how dense are you people? Why have internals at all at this point? Wasnt the point of armor 2.0 was that people must have to aim at internals to kill and not at center mass?

 

God i hope that it is the UI that is bugged because this is restart.ed, after all that has happenned....

Edited

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Vudu_guy    1,545
13 minutes ago, hchris said:

It looks kinda strange to only see rocket armed bots....

Strange? that just look like the old clan farming a city full of tanks.

 

19 minutes ago, Supermauz_R said:

If you want to motivate tankers to play on this map and move close to the objective to support their bots capping and defending

 

The bots and the cap point are only mean to actually end the game  its bait to lure tanks to leave their cover and help the cap, its not the main reason, tank vs tank is the objective., using resourses for programing AI to behave like a single player game seems like a waste.

Edited

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HorstVII    350

I really like the new map. Great designed, looks awesome and quite immersive. The overall feeling of being a tank commander, being ordered to help an infantry assault on a crossroads with fire support from outside is nice. The terrain also provides sufficient cover to move around, get into new shooting location, flank or push towards the town. The bots fit this scenario, although i think they need some adjustments.

Some thoughts (not in order, i might add to the list later):

- to make the battle more fun for the players, reduce the respawn timer for the tanks by like 50%. (for this gamemode only, at least for now). You will be fighting in tanks only, you cant spent four minutes waiting after you lose an expensive tank as you can not switch to infantry. We dont want insta deploy, but as it is it takes way too long.

- you spawn in with the back towards the battlefield, it would be better if you would spawn in facing the direction towards the objective.

- havent done the math behind it, but i think only 1 XP for killing a bot is too low. Sure you have to balance it to prevend XP farming the bots, but they should at least be worth the HE shell you kill them with, and i am not sure if 1 XP is equal to 40 credits.

- dont let the bots spawn and run in groups. knowing where they spawn takes you two minutes and then one well placed HE shell is enough to wipe out an entire wave of bots.

- bots should get a pistol as well to shoot at tankers close range when they are close tot he objective and peak out, hop out to repair or go for bot killing with small arms.

- the overall number of active bots per team seems a little too high. You should not be able to safely sit in the cap or the enemy bot spawn untouched, but right now they are death zones.

- at least one of the buildings outside the main objective, one of the "farm style" houses ( i think it is the north-west bot spawn) is a little too much placed into the ground, the dirt covers some of the inside, reaching up the stairs a little or at the door...

- is it required to have designated bot spawn zones? wouldnt it be better to have them come from a general sector of the map on random basis, like one team has north and east, the other has south and west and the bots can basically spawn in these entire areas, in a certain distance away from  the objective? that would prevent both the grouping up of bots as well as spawncamping them.

- killing friendly bots should give -1 XP instead of 1 XP

- potential BUG: was shooting an enemy Panther in the sides, killed ammo, both tracks and engine compartments. Shot the sides again three times, all were direct on, did not get a single hit. No damage done (neither to armor nor to compartments or even base structure), no message, no visual impact. Shot front, took out transmission, shot the same place again with the same result, no damage done at all and no messages.

- for me, the terrain for most of the hedgerows and some of the hills is too steep and too narrow on the top. For some tanks they are hard or even impossible to climb, it looks odd and travelling over them is wierd.

- some of the bots glitch out, causing them to stay in one place and turn around all the time. They just stand there and turn themselfs. Happens in the spawn sometimes, happens when they are aroudn the objective.

- you can crush the new green hedges without touching them. All you need it to drive approximately 20cm besides them and they will get destroyed, far before you even get in contact with them. Please look at those hitboxes.

Edited
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fatal-is    680

Yes it is pretty fun, the map is a nice change from the older ones... Remove the spawn delay, doesnt need for this game mode. Makes no sense to wait 2 minutes for every spawn.

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Vudu_guy    1,545
2 hours ago, HorstVII said:

- dont let the bots spawn and run in groups. knowing where they spawn takes you two minutes and then one well placed HE shell is enough to wipe out an entire wave of bots.

 

I saw them spawning in waves of 5 from 2 places, they indeed need more spawns and maybe in pairs.

 

2 hours ago, HorstVII said:

- the overall number of active bots per team seems a little too high. You should not be able to safely sit in the cap or the enemy bot spawn untouched, but right now they are death zones.

 

 

I think thats ok, tankers are supossed to figth each other instead of capping the point, the bots behaviour is inconsistent, sometimes they are very effective with the rockets, but sometimes they just look at you at 20m and die like any H&G silent majority player :D

 

2 hours ago, HorstVII said:

- potential BUG: was shooting an enemy Panther in the sides, killed ammo, both tracks and engine compartments. Shot the sides again three times, all were direct on, did not get a single hit. No damage done (neither to armor nor to compartments or even base structure), no message, no visual impact. Shot front, took out transmission, shot the same place again with the same result, no damage done at all and no messages.

 

This also happened to me once, but i tougth it was releated with the high ping i get to the proto server but yeah, can be a bug.

 

2 hours ago, HorstVII said:

havent done the math behind it, but i think only 1 XP for killing a bot is too low. Sure you have to balance it to prevend XP farming the bots, but they should at least be worth the HE shell you kill them with, and i am not sure if 1 XP is equal to 40 credits.

I want to know if those bots will also give WF in war mode.

 

2 hours ago, HorstVII said:

- for me, the terrain for most of the hedgerows and some of the hills is too steep and too narrow on the top

True, I overturned  my tank once (hellcat) and saw another (hellcat too) suffer the same destiny in another match.

 

 

 

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Nace    344

Okay the new Damage is quite interesting

 

I like that modules like ammo / fuel deal way more damage to a vehicle than before (fuel however deales a bit too much compared to ammo)

Still this is a good change, especially for Infantry :)

I cant rally say that im a fan of the fact that destroying the tracks deals damage to the overall structure of the tank. ( the same goes for the Gun barrel) they are mostly exterior componetnts after all.

(i know that this was allready a thing but now it is really noticeable)

 

also it would be nice if we got the chance to test those effects on the Infantry vehicles ( I hope that OHK of soft vehicles with AT-rifles won´t be a thing again )

 

Honestly now that this is going to get imlemented it would be nice if the rate of Armor weardown would be decreased or caped at the old value of 1/2 thickness (to not encourage players going for Head on attacks only)

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