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Jacky95

Future T1,T2 and T3 machineguns. (Pre-design meeting status)

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Jacky95    2,354

………………………………………………….

Disclamer:

This all bellow is in Pre-design meeting status. 

 

This thread is created for Informational purposes ONLY !

 

And as Reto.Christiano requested, DO NOT TAG Christiano in this discussion or any other discussion releated to this ! 

 

His focus is on the vehicle update at the moment, and these forum threads tend to take away quite a bit of his concentration when he is getting constantly pinged with questions and replies.

 

And all these plans below are not quite relevant yet !

………………………………………………….

 

In QnA 14 RedBjarn said, answering my question, that weapon suggestions have been made for the SU tier 2 LMG and SU para. LMG weapon classes.

He said that these suggestion were too similar to existing weapons and/or hard to implement. He also talked very shortly about DP variations.

 

After the QnA i have asked Christiano about the subject and he gave me the following information:

 

SDmtV7h.jpg

Quote

I

At the moment it is more a matter of roughly identifying the holes in the current lineup, and making a prioritized list of the order they should be filled.

 

Then we'll have a design meeting where we discuss more thoroughly which exact item to pick, weighing gameplay, authenticity, and artistic appearance up against each other before settling for something. We haven't gotten to this meeting yet, which is why RedBjarne wasn't too sure what was in the proposed overviews, as he had just skimmed the drafts.

 

The reason I didn't put this one through the RRR forum was that I combed through a lot of other forum threads regarding the subject, which I felt covered the subject well enough to work out that list.

 

Most other suggestions were prototypes, experemental weapons, or the Maxim-Tokarev (which was no longer in Soviet service by that time - although it would otherwise have fit in quite well)

 

 

………………………………………………….

Christiano allowed me to share this information on the R.R.R. so that everyone would be informed.

 

So please behave, and DO NOT TAG HIM ! Christiano will deal with this subject when it will become more relevant !

………………………………………………….

 

 

 

 
Edited

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GermanSoldier    3,795

The lineup is kinda meh, i dislike the mg13 (interwar gun with little use in ww2) and the DP and DPM being a little bit to similar (since from a basic POV all the dpm offers is a slightly higher RPM)

 

Id much rather see a gun like the Mg26t, simply for the fact that it is a much more iconic gun that saw much more use than the mg13 (both early on in the war and late in the war it served as substitute for units that had no priority in the supply chain, a quiet significant number saw use, early on with the SS and later with rear guard/ stationary units of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe)

and ofc as some one that has learned to love the gun as its operator it is my duty to ask for it to be added

 

 

As for the soviet side, it may be even less elegant than having two extremely similar guns, but a way to overcome the soviets only having DP based guns, would be using the Polish Browning wz. 1928. (since i dont see the polish as their own faction in this game working) Quiet a number of them where captured by the soviets in 1939 when invading, these where mainly reused in the more desperate hours during the defenses against the germans 1941/42.

 

As i said it may not be the most elegant solution, but it would provide each faction with extremely similar weapons to start off their LMG listing, making first time player experience very similar across the faction (granted the ppd40 gets more in line with the other two SMGs) 

 

 

Two side notes:

1. German belt links are either loaded at -3 (when using only the belt) or -1 (when using insertion piece) rounds of capacity. So capacity would be 49 with the drum and 99 or 97 when using linked belts. 

 

2. The 1941 johnson lmg cant possibly achieve a cyclic rate of 900 rpm when the 1944 was specified with having a higher cyclic rate due to improved gas system and having a cyclic rate of 600 to 700 rpm. This effectively means the johnson lays below 600 rpm, which also fits with other sources claiming a rate of fire around 450 to 550 rpm 

Edited

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Jacky95    2,354
44 minutes ago, GermanSoldier said:

 

As for the soviet side, it may be even less elegant than having two extremely similar guns, but a way to overcome the soviets only having DP based guns

In my opinion players use weapons to kill other players, and the kill factor is determined by the stats and such, not by exterior looks.

So the" looks" factors should be the last thing that is considered! Since it does not influence gameplay.

 

The DPM would offer higher rpm,better turn speed and slightly better time to aim,and better overall controlability over the DP.

Better ergonomics and rpm is I think, enough for it to be added as tier 2.

 

Plus it was adopted by the military with a reason

Edited

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GermanSoldier    3,795
3 minutes ago, Jacky95 said:

In my opinion players use weapons to kill other players, and the kill factor is determined by the stats and such, not by exterior looks.

So the" looks" factors should be the last thing that is considered! Since it does not influence gameplay.

 

The DPM would offer higher rpm,better turn speed and slightly better time to aim,and better overall controlability over the DP.

That I think is enough for it to be added as tier 2.

 

This is not about the looks, this is about the stats.

 

The improvements of the DPM irl where mainly about reliability, the slightly increased cyclic rate was just a nice side effect (and this is even a pretty negligible amount we are talking about here irl that in the game is already covered via modding).

 

Certainly in the game you can tweak everything as much as you like, but effectively we are talking about adding the very same weapon here, just in 3 slightly different variants.

 

Now dont get me wrong, im perfectly fine with doing so, especially since each of the guns could effectively have its own strength and weakness making each of them a viable weapon to take out, but it is not really an elegant solution for increasing variety and i am probably not a majority with that opinion (especially since i doubt that each gun will have its strengths and weaknesses and we will rather see more of the "next unlock = better in every way" mentality) 

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Jacky95    2,354
17 minutes ago, GermanSoldier said:

 

This is not about the looks, this is about the stats.

 

The improvements of the DPM irl where mainly about reliability, the slightly increased cyclic rate was just a nice side effect (and this is even a pretty negligible amount we are talking about here irl that in the game is already covered via modding).

 

Certainly in the game you can tweak everything as much as you like, but effectively we are talking about adding the very same weapon here, just in 3 slightly different variants.

 

Now dont get me wrong, im perfectly fine with doing so, especially since each of the guns could effectively have its own strength and weakness making each of them a viable weapon to take out, but it is not really an elegant solution for increasing variety and i am probably not a majority with that opinion (especially since i doubt that each gun will have its strengths and weaknesses and we will rather see more of the "next unlock = better in every way" mentality) 

Ok, I agree

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Fegaris    1,744

Mg26/30 (t) basicly better handling and faster reloading BAR ? as tier 1 GE

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Nace    344

This lineup seems fine, however it is worth mentioning that the MG 13 was more or less a Unicorn in WW2 Copared to the Mg26(t) and in terms of Infantry use its pretty much on the same level as the MG 30. So i´d Personally recomend going for the MG26(t). ( I also preffer the MG 30 over the MG 13 but thats just because it looks better.)

 

The Russian LMG lineup seems fitting However a little bit boring as they are all different DP Versions.

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Jacky95    2,354
10 minutes ago, Nace said:

 

The Russian LMG lineup seems fitting However a little bit boring as they are all different DP Versions.

You cant really get better ones tho.......there is the DS-39 machinegun but that as to my knowledge, has no stock.....but it has 1200 cycling rate...

Edited

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Fegaris    1,744
On 19. 1. 2018 at 3:22 PM, Fegaris said:

Zb vz. 26 (1926)

vz26-1.jpg

cartrige: 7,92×57 Mauser

velocity: 762 m/s

rpm: 550 

magazne size: 20 or 30 

lenght: 1161 mm

weight: 9,5kg

 

Zb vz. 30 has +100 rof

 

 

 

Edited

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Jacky95    2,354

Image result for DS-39 machinegun tank variant

Spoiler

Image result for DS-39 machinegun tank variant

 

i dont know much of this but, its supposed to be the tank variant.

what do you guys think?

 

Even if this was only on the tank variant we could still use it as inf. weapon, since inf. did use the gun....so adding a stock might not be that big of a streach. And than DT can go tier 2

@Akinaba@Hastur_ you guys can speak russian.

https://topwar.ru/134064-drugoy-degtyarev.html

Edited

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BrandonSolo10    3,562

It does not coincide to my vision of a three-tier machine gun list.

 

My reaction to this list is "Eh".

 

We have guns that are too similar to eachother, rarities that shouldn't be there, and the complete absence of heavy machine guns.

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Jacky95    2,354
3 minutes ago, BrandonSolo10 said:

It does not coincide to my vision of a three-tier machine gun list.

 

My reaction to this list is "Eh".

 

We have guns that are too similar to eachother, rarities that shouldn't be there, and the complete absence of heavy machine guns.

With adding tripods the tier3's could be turned into HMG's...... and I think there would not be technical problems with tripods......unlike with the bipods

Edited

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BrandonSolo10    3,562
Just now, Jacky95 said:

With adding tripods the tier3's could be turned into HMG's...... and I think there would not be technical problems with tripods......

 

HMGs should be fixed positions on the map, but the idea of deployables (aside from mortars and bipods) is something to be seriously considered.

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Jacky95    2,354
Just now, BrandonSolo10 said:

 

HMGs should be fixed positions on the map, but the idea of deployables (aside from mortars and bipods) is something to be seriously considered.

Yeah I agree with that...... 

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Fegaris    1,744
2 minutes ago, BrandonSolo10 said:

 

HMGs should be fixed positions on the map, but the idea of deployables (aside from mortars and bipods) is something to be seriously considered.

thats actualy good....

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BrandonSolo10    3,562

I will communicate my own personal idea for a three-tier machine gun list later, but long story short...

 

It's nowhere close to Christiano's draft.

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Hastur_    169

DPM not neaded, that's for sure.
What about DS-39. It was prodused more than 10 000, but many of tham was captured German in fist month of war. 
In its function is similar to DT-29- was planned to instalation in tanks as primary, paired or course MG.

 

Primary MG in T-38

Spoiler

 

03_bashnya_t-38-bae41a8b9e78e13424de9005b8e7cbb9.jpg

âРазмеÑение пÑлемÑÑной ÑÑÑановки в баÑне лÑгкого Ñанка Т-38 - ÐÑÑгой «ÐегÑÑÑÑв» | Warspot.ru

âÐаÑÐµÐ½Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð¿ÑлемÑÑÐ½Ð°Ñ ÑÑÑановка инженеÑа ÐолÑбина Ñ Â«Ñблоком» ÑаÑниÑа в ÑбоÑе - ÐÑÑгой «ÐегÑÑÑÑв» | Warspot.ru

Stacking of spare barrels and replaceable sights

âУкладка запаÑнÑÑ ÑÑволов и ÑменнÑÑ Ð¿ÑиÑелов в боевом оÑделении Ñанка Т-38 - ÐÑÑгой «ÐегÑÑÑÑв» | Warspot.ru

 

 

Paired variant

Spoiler

âСпаÑÐµÐ½Ð½Ð°Ñ Ñ Ð¿ÑÑкой ÑÑÑановка ÑазÑабоÑки инженеÑа ÐÑÑенкова - ÐÑÑгой «ÐегÑÑÑÑв» | Warspot.ru

 

In T-26 turret. Use same magazine mount as DT-29

Spoiler

âÐаÑианÑÑ Ð±Ð¾ÐµÑкладок и подаÑа ленÑÑ Ð² баÑне Ñанка Т-26 - ÐÑÑгой «ÐегÑÑÑÑв» | Warspot.ru

 

And same as DT-29 it has in each tank a bipods with sight for use outside the tank with unfolded butt

Spoiler

 

âТанковÑй ваÑÐ¸Ð°Ð½Ñ Ð¿ÑлемÑÑа ÐС-39 в конÑигÑÑаÑии Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð²ÐµÐ´ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð±Ð¾Ñ Ð²Ð½Ðµ Ñанка, вид ÑпеÑеди в ÑакÑÑÑе 3/4 - ÐÑÑгой «ÐегÑÑÑÑв» | Warspot.ru

âТанковÑй ваÑÐ¸Ð°Ð½Ñ Ð¿ÑлемÑÑа ÐС-39 Ñ Ð¿Ñикладом в боевом положении (ввеÑÑÑ) и Ñ ÑÑÑановленнÑми ÑоÑками (внизÑ) - ÐÑÑгой «ÐегÑÑÑÑв» | Warspot.ru

 

 

From the report to the chief of the GAU KA (the Main Artillery Directorate of the Red Army), Colonel-General of the Artillery N.D. Yakovlev follows that on May 1, 1943 in the army in force there were 1,765 DS-39 machine guns

 

Of all the information available today, it can be concluded that the obvious further development of the DS-39 machine gun was the introduction of a metal band, the remodeling of an infantry version box after the example of a tank machine gun with a pistol grip and a butt, and also equipment with bipods. All this would lead to the appearance in the Red Army of a universal machine gun, similar to the MG 34 in the Wehrmacht. Alas, the assumptions were only conjectures.

But I like idea: Fedorov-> DP-27-> DT-29

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GermanSoldier    3,795
9 hours ago, Jacky95 said:

With adding tripods the tier3's could be turned into HMG's...... and I think there would not be technical problems with tripods......unlike with the bipods

 

I think there is a considerable higher effort to adding tripods than bipods.

 

After all, for bipods the game only needs to detect if there is something you can rest your gun on, with a tripod you have to also make sure that there is nothing in the way of it, and you actually have enough room to deploy it.

 

Asides that it would require a whole new set of things for deployment to start with, since you cant just carry a tripod around like your regular gun in your hand. 

 

But as i have said some time ago, adding tripod machine guns allows for even more variety since you can start out each faction with one of their older HMGs and then build up to the really neat late ones, for example GE starts with the Mg37t, then unlocks the Mg34 and then the Mg42 on tripods. 

 

But for an LMG setup it would still be nice to have as many guns as possible

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Jacky95    2,354

I have to give voice to many other people over the

tier 1 german mg.

 

The mg13 is viewed as an ill-choice and as it was a more of a rare type of mg, many players would prefer the mg30 or the mg26t since they were widely used, by the german army,and they fit the role/class much better.

 

1 hour ago, Hastur_ said:

the DS-39 machine gun was the introduction of a metal band, the remodeling of an infantry version box after the example of a tank machine gun with a pistol grip and a butt, and also equipment with bipods. All this would lead to the appearance in the Red Army of a universal machine gun, similar to the MG 34 in the Wehrmacht. Alas, the assumptions were only conjectures.

By metal band you mean a foregrip?

 

Edited

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Hastur_    169
45 minutes ago, Jacky95 said:

I have to give voice to many other people over the

tier 1 german mg.

 

The mg13 is viewed as an ill-choice and as it was a more of a rare type of mg, many players would prefer the mg30 or the mg26t since they were widely used, by the german army,and they fit the role/class much better.

 

By metal band you mean a foregrip?

 

No, metal machine-gun belt.
As you can see here it textile like on Maxim.

âРазмеÑение пÑлемÑÑной ÑÑÑановки в баÑне лÑгкого Ñанка Т-38 - ÐÑÑгой «ÐегÑÑÑÑв» | Warspot.ru

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