Recon Vehicles

[Reto.Christiano 480]

Another road map I'm plotting out at the moment is for Recon Vehicles.

 

Here is the second early draft.

 

The first draft was just three tiers, but trying to fit in the popular demand for a Puma, I'm trying to expand it to four (with the possibility of separating it into light and heavy resources).

 

I am however finding it difficult to find good vehicles to match a Sd.Kfz.222 and 234 lineup.

Both the M8 Greyhound, and the BA-6 fits sort of in between the two, so they could go either way, and would need something squeezed in either before or after them.

In the layout above I tried pushing in a BA-27 in front of the BA-6, but I'm not convinced that this is the way to go.

 

While the BA-6 has a decent cannon, it suffers quite severely in engine power (which is something that you can really tell with the new vehicle handling code, where I've had to be a bit generous with the BA-6, just to make it playable) - This is a general problem with all the Soviet armored cars. Very low HP/Weight ratios.

 

So I'm open to suggestions for changes and additions to the overview above.

In particular ideas for recon vehicles that will fit in either before or after the M8 and BA-6.

 

Keep in mind, these vehicles should be some that were actually used for reconnaissance purposes. (as mentioned earlier, we are considering giving recon vehicles a "radio" function to work for an expanded spotting mechanics)

 

Also the vehicles should not be easily confused with other vehicles. For example, the US should not get an M2 or M3 halftrack that looks too similar to the infantry half track. - Playing need to be able to tell easily if something is a mobile infantry spawn vehicle, or if it is a recon vehicle. (The German Sd.Kfz. 250, and the new Infantry Sd.Kfz. 251 looks different enough that this won't be a problem)

 

Again, I would like to stress that the above is not a final road map of how things will be. This is an early draft that will be used throughout several design meetings.

[Nace 344]

The lineup for the Germans seems solid, pretty much how i expected it would look like. (oh boy I can´t wait for the Puma)

 

The Americans could posibbly get the T17E1 staghound. The Problem is that it wasn´t used by the US but instead sold to GB. it would Nevertheless fit in as an american counterpart to the Puma/BA-6.

it has decent armor for a scout car, a fully enclosed turret as well as a secondary machine gun in the bow. + a topspeed similar to the Greyhound.

 

For the Russians i think that instead of the BA-27 the BA-I could work

it was quite a bit faster than the BA-27, it however was produced in fairly low numbers and looks somewhat similar to the BA-6.

 

Or we add BA-10 and put it behind the BA-6.

 

Edit:

another Option for the Russians could be the Ba-64D, a few were made and as far as I know Field tested:

instead of the DT it was armed with a 12.7mm DShK.

Edited February 7, 2018

[AfonsoQQ 3,011]

Everything sounds perfect, its just too bad the americans dont have anything better than the greyhound

We could add the BA-11 for SU and give it more dmg

(tho few were produced, they were used in Leningrad front)

Edited February 7, 2018

[Hastur_ 169]

Very veird choises. Very.

All next info from Bronemashini Stalina Kolomiets M.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o1t_G6Gn6_lW3xVIj4avpO5WEBSDlTTB/view?usp=sharing

If we talk about D-8, so better take D-12 with Maxim gun on top and DT on hull

Spoiler

 

 

Or even better LB-62 with DShK and DT in turret and DT in hull. And that is 1939 year, so that is most close to any other counterpart. Really, really good choise as for me.
Armour 6-13mm with angels 25-42 degrees, DShK in turret with 500 Rnds, DT in turret and DT in hull (3150 rnds in summary), 5,15 tons, 90 km/h.
Use turret from T-40 tank.
Interesting fact that Timoshenko (Marshal of the Soviet Union) sayd LB-62 better than BA-20 and even BA-10. But it never got into mass production becouse of workload of the plants by the release of other vehicles.

Spoiler

 

 

 

As prototype variant we also habe BA-64D with DShK gun.

BA-27 counterpart for 222 and m8? First prodused since 1937, second from 1943. And BA-27 production discontinued in 1931 (rivet cart- not neaden in the game). Better BA-6 and after it Ba-10M or BA-11

Characteristics of Soviet BA

 

[Jacky95 2,354]

U

1 hour ago, AfonsoQQ said:

Everything sounds perfect, its just too bad the americans dont have anything better than the greyhound

We could add the BA-11 for SU and give it more dmg

(tho few were produced, they were used in Leningrad front)

 

 

 

I agree ,best top tier option.

The B-27 is horribly underpowered in the suggested class.

 

The Ba-64B would be a better tier 1 while the D variant would be a better tier2

 

Edited February 7, 2018

[Reto.Christiano 480]

1 hour ago, Nace said:

The Americans could posibbly get the T17E1 staghound. The Problem is that it wasn´t used by the US but instead sold to GB.

Going the route of US produced GB used vehicles (Which I'm not totally rejecting) I'd say the T18E2 Boarhound might be a better match for the Puma.

 

1 hour ago, AfonsoQQ said:

We could add the BA-11 for SU

Noted.

Not a bad choice.

Like I said, I could see the BA-6 go either way, and the increased hull armor and more than double engine power would definitely make this a good upgrade.

 

18 minutes ago, Hastur_ said:

If we talk about D-8, so better take D-12 with Maxim gun on top and DT on hull

Went with the D-8 to keep the armament similar for all Tier 1. (front + rear guns. No turret)

 

20 minutes ago, Hastur_ said:

Or even better LB-62 with DShK and DT in turret and DT in hull.

LB-62 is noted. Thanks.

[Hastur_ 169]

27 minutes ago, Reto.Christiano said:

Went with the D-8 to keep the armament similar for all Tier 1. (front + rear guns. No turret)

But Both D-8 and D-12 have only 1 MG in hull. And 4 hole for it (front, sides and rear), in idea MG can be reset to another hole. Not few hole in one time. But even that is little impossible, becouse VERY uncomfortable and is no place inside. So only frontal MG.

[AfonsoQQ 3,011]

I really like the D-8 its super cute hehe

Spoiler

 

[Reto.Christiano 480]

I've updated the overview, and included armor as a factor (rough figures, not including top and bottom armor):

 

I'm not too sure about the Boarhound, as this is one that would be better saved for the introduction of a British faction.

[AfonsoQQ 3,011]

6 minutes ago, Reto.Christiano said:

I'm not too sure about the Boarhound, as this is one that would be better saved for the introduction of a British faction.

Indeed, plus with the addition of the .50 to the greyhound it would compensate for the lack of firepower, the .50 with realistic pen values + the 37mm would be awesome against light tanks

[Hastur_ 169]

1 minute ago, Reto.Christiano said:

I've updated the overview, and included armor as a factor (rough figures, not including top and bottom armor):

 

I'm not too sure about the Boarhound, as this is one that would be better saved for the introduction of a British faction.

How you will balance Puma with other vehicle? 
Better penetration, reverse speed = forward speed.

[AfonsoQQ 3,011]

1 minute ago, Hastur_ said:

Better penetration, reverse speed = forward speed.

Assymetrical balance, just like the chaffe :^)

[GermanSoldier 3,795]

8 minutes ago, Reto.Christiano said:

I've updated the overview, and included armor as a factor

 

This looks pretty good, though one thing that im having in my head, with the 250 and the 221, would it be possible to, in the future, get different variants of it?

 

Similar to the entire idea of tank modding, where you can add extra armor etc, both the 221 and 250 are base for a handful of other interesting vehicles that would make a great addition for the recon class, and one thing id love to see, since its barely anywhere used ever, is a Puma with a Luchs turret (it would literally be a 222 with better mobility, but i love that vehicle so much) 

 

12 minutes ago, Reto.Christiano said:

I'm not too sure about the Boarhound, as this is one that would be better saved for the introduction of a British faction.

 

The M8 greyhound itself overall is a pretty good match for the BA 11 already, and the Puma is not that vastly better either, as afonso said, with a .50 on top of the turret it would have really good firepower already. So i for one honestly dont see the point of having to "sneak in" a new vehicle that wasnt really used, if an existing one fills the slot rather good already. It certainly is a little unfortunate if there is one vehicle less, but some times that cant be solved, especially when playing with the ww2 setting

[Fegaris 1,744]

Wow, gonna love this. Maybe i would go for BA-11 aswell.

 

 

36 minutes ago, AfonsoQQ said:

I really like the D-8 its super cute hehe

  Reveal hidden contents

 

me want

 

 

[Hastur_ 169]

Just now, AfonsoQQ said:

Assymetrical balance, just like the chaffe :^)

And what advanteges have another vehicle? If "Assymetrical"

[Fegaris 1,744]

1 minute ago, GermanSoldier said:

The M8 greyhound itself overall is a pretty good match for the BA 11 already, and the Puma is not that vastly better either, as afonso said, with a .50 on top of the turret it would have really good firepower already. So i for one honestly dont see the point of having to "sneak in" a new vehicle that wasnt really used, if an existing one fills the slot rather good already. It certainly is a little unfortunate if there is one vehicle less, but some times that cant be solved, especially when playing with the ww2 setting

Agree.....thought, we know how Jumbo ended up.

[GermanSoldier 3,795]

Just now, Hastur_ said:

And what advanteges have another vehicle? If "Assymetrical"

 

Additonal gunners like on the BA 11, if that thing would get APCR there would be quiet a lot of firepower in the hull

 

Also, in terms of gun performance, the 50mm is not that vastly better than the 45mm of the soviets

[Reto.Christiano 480]

8 minutes ago, Hastur_ said:

How you will balance Puma with other vehicle? 

The weakness of the Puma appears to be it's light armor. Especially on it's side..... that huge huge side...

Compared to something like the BA-11 which appears to be more or less a constant 13mm armor thickness.

And like @GermanSoldier said, the 45mm gun is not bad, and well suited in the same group. Plus in this layout, Soviets would get the large gun on both of their heavy vehicles.

Additional balancing can be made with the new deploy system, where better equipment requires more deployment points to deploy.

 

25 minutes ago, AfonsoQQ said:

Indeed, plus with the addition of the .50 to the greyhound it would compensate for the lack of firepower, the .50 with realistic pen values + the 37mm would be awesome against light tanks

There is also the possibility of putting something in as Light recon Tier 1 or Tier 2, bumping up the M20 and M8 to heavy.

So suggestions for a light US recon vehicle are also welcome.

[Hastur_ 169]

26 minutes ago, GermanSoldier said:

 

Additonal gunners like on the BA 11, if that thing would get APCR there would be quiet a lot of firepower in the hull

 

Also, in terms of gun performance, the 50mm is not that vastly better than the 45mm of the soviets

45mm gun ~65mm APBC-HE and 103 for APCR

50mm 96 and 149 respectively. Near 50% better

[Hastur_ 169]

13 minutes ago, Reto.Christiano said:

The weakness of the Puma appears to be it's light armor. Especially on it's side..... that huge huge side...

Compared to something like the BA-11 which appears to be more or less a constant 13mm armor thickness.

And like @GermanSoldier said, the 45mm gun is not bad, and well suited in the same group. Plus in this layout, Soviets would get the large gun on both of their heavy vehicles.

Additional balancing can be made with the new deploy system, where better equipment requires more deployment points to deploy.

 

There is also the possibility of putting something in as Light recon Tier 1 or Tier 2, bumping up the M20 and M8 to heavy.

So suggestions for a light US recon vehicle are also welcome.

But despite everything Sdkfz 222 still will be better annihilator of enemy Recon vehicle