Self Propelled Anti Aircraft Guns

[Reto.Christiano 480]

I finally got a chance so sit down and take a look at the vehicle road map. - That is, get an overview of the holes in our current vehicle layout, figure out what would fit in, and then we can use that road map to make a prioritized production schedule.

 

Here is an overview of what I had in mind for the self propelled anti aircraft guns for the infantry:

 

I could use some help with the Soviet Tier 2 and 3.

 

While the TKB-149 triple DShK mount armament would fit quite well as a Tier 2, I have problems finding any reference of it.

I've only seen two pictures of it (both are roughly from the same angle) and a single small scale model vehicle which is rather rough.

This is not enough material to be able to make a 3d model. If anyone has any more pictures, or better yet blueprints, I would be very happy to get my hands on them.

An alternative armament I have in mind, in case the triple DShK proves impossible to find, is either the 72-K single 25mm or 94-KM dual 25mm auto cannons.

 

I'm also not too happy with the base vehicles for the Soviet Tier 2 and 3.

It is a bit disappointing to have the same truck for all (other trucks were also used, but they are all very similar).

So I'm thinking about using either the unarmored ZIS-22M, or the armored ZIS-41/43 halftracks as bases for either. Although the ZIS-22M was, as far as I can see, plagued with production problems and very few were produced. and the armored variant only existed as prototypes.

If anyone has any production information on these (or other) Soviet half-tracks, I'd like to know so we can have a design meeting and decide if they are plausible enough to include.

I would love to give the Soviets a halftrack of their own, and do away with their lend lease equipment.

 

The above is just a draft/overview. If you have some good suggestions to alternatives, I'm all ears.

Just keep in mind the basic tier groups.

Tier 1) High rate of fire - Moderate Damage. (With the US sacrificing fire rate for higher damage)

Tier 2) High rate of fire - Heavy Damage.

Tier 3) Low rate of fire - Very High Damage.

 

What I'm not looking for are tank based anti air guns (Ostwind, M19, ZSU-37). These are vehicles we would rather hold in reserve for the future possibility of adding an anti-air option for tankers.

 

So what I'm most interested in is pictures (photos, blueprints, drawings, scale models) of Soviet anti aircraft trucks and halftracks, and especially the triple DShK mount.

[Jacky95 2,354]

I like the choices....btw on tier 1 will the rpm increase from what we have now on the maxim towards a more realistic one? Or because of the plane speeds they have to stay on lower rpm's.?

................

I think you know it too but germany also had a single barrel 20mm on various trucks...like the krupp protze. Altho tier 1 suggestions already look fine.

Edited February 6, 2018

[Reto.Christiano 480]

Just now, Jacky95 said:

I like the choices....btw on tier 1 will the rpm increase from what we have now on the maxim towards a more realistic one? Or because of the plane speeds they have to stay on lower rpm's.?

The rate of fire is largely limited by network traffic, so it's not as simple as to just type in a higher number, if we still want keep the data traffic within an acceptable limit for all players to be able to play.

 

In the current setup, guns that are set to have a lower rate of fire than they should have also received a damage boost to compensate. so the damage per second is roughly the same as it would be if the rate of fire was correct. We realize that this means that the hit probability is lower, it also means that these guns effectively have a much larger amount of ammunition.

 

We have previously been talking about some different ways we could better simulate high rates of fire without effecting data traffic. But there are no fixes on the horizon just yet. So don't expect that to change any time soon.

[AfonsoQQ 3,011]

I like all the choices, they fit in perfectly

[Jacky95 2,354]

Personally I think we should go with the armored halftracks if they are an option.

Protection is needed

[AfonsoQQ 3,011]

16 minutes ago, Jacky95 said:

Personally I think we should go with the armored halftracks if they are an option.

Protection is needed

Exactly i cant even survive 1 pass from a plane with HE in that deathtrap we call sdkfz 7/1

[_Finnish_Gamemaster_ 2,256]

The choices are good imo too  

I'd like to see an Opel Blitz with single barrel flak 38 as the weapon in the game, they look awesome

 

Another thing @Reto.Christiano might it be possible that the 3,7 mm Flak 43 would get in as an AA-emplacement too, like the current AA-guns?

1 minute ago, AfonsoQQ said:

Exactly i cant even survive 1 pass from a plane with HE in that deathtrap we call sdkfz 7/1

the entire 7/1 is basically a low mobility chair with a 20mm gun that turns super slowly and has a super slow ROF

[AfonsoQQ 3,011]

1 minute ago, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

I'd like to see an Opel Blitz with single barrel flak 38 as the weapon in the game, they look awesome

Yes but they have 0 armor... heh

[_Finnish_Gamemaster_ 2,256]

Just now, AfonsoQQ said:

Yes but they have 0 armor... heh

If it was faster and had a fast firing flak 38 with some depression angles it would be quite usefull imo, not as useful as the 222 in the same role but still the concept of a flak on an opel blitz is nice

[AfonsoQQ 3,011]

Just now, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

If it was faster and had a fast firing flak 38 with some depression angles it would be quite usefull imo, not as useful as the 222 in the same role but still the concept of a flak on an opel blitz is nice

faster on road that is...

[OC_Ludwig 526]

I'm a bit sad about the Kfz. 4 being added as SPAAG. I had hoped it would be added as as Terrain Vehicle (Tier 2 Car).

[GermanSoldier 3,795]

39 minutes ago, OC_Ludwig said:

I'm a bit sad about the Kfz. 4 being added as SPAAG. I had hoped it would be added as as Terrain Vehicle (Tier 2 Car).

 

Well one doesnt rule the other out does it. I mean the GAZ AAA is also there in 2 variants currently

 

3 hours ago, Reto.Christiano said:

Here is an overview of what I had in mind for the self propelled anti aircraft guns for the infantry:

 

What im a little curious about though, the Russian 37mm 61k, had a rather low rate of fire, half that of the American 37mm, but even that only had roughly half that of the Flak 43 used on the 7/2, so will that just be balanced in damage or will they just get a similar rate of fire?

 

Also, will the 7/2 get the cool armored cab? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Hastur_ 169]

Some Soviet SPAAG:

http://wio.ru/galgrnd/flak/spflak.htm

 

Sadly, but these are the only this photos

And model:

Spoiler

 

 

May be Zis-43 (prototype too)

http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/halftracks/ussr/zis-43.htm

[Fegaris 1,744]

Rly nice choices, like it. I have a question, is gonna modular system touch planes aswell ? ...as it would help bit in AA vs Planes situation i think.

Edited February 6, 2018

[Fegaris 1,744]

2 hours ago, Hastur_ said:

May be Zis-43 (prototype too)

I think, we should go rather for rare then prototype in big factions.

 

edit: sry, it did not merged. 

Edited February 6, 2018

[BrandonSolo10 3,562]

Will the self-propelled anti-aircraft guns actually be able to be trained on infantry for once?

 

It might aid greatly it its role since it can defend itself against infantry as a secondary role.

[Jacky95 2,354]

8 hours ago, Fegaris said:

I think, we should go rather for rare then prototype in big factions.

 

edit: sry, it did not merged. 

On SU you can only have prototypes if you want an armored version.....and we want an armored version as an spaa.

[Reto.Christiano 480]

18 hours ago, OC_Ludwig said:

I'm a bit sad about the Kfz. 4 being added as SPAAG. I had hoped it would be added as as Terrain Vehicle (Tier 2 Car).

I just want to stress that the overview above should not be read as something that will definitely get into the game.

These sheets are used very early on in the design process to place the stuff we have, identify any holes we might have, and figure out what stuff could potentially fill these holes.

Things might change during the design meetings. - There might not be enough reference available, we might want to save something for a different role, or a number of other reasons.

 

But if it makes you feel better, I've had my eyes out on a Horch 901 for a second German car.

 

17 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

What im a little curious about though, the Russian 37mm 61k, had a rather low rate of fire, half that of the American 37mm, but even that only had roughly half that of the Flak 43 used on the 7/2, so will that just be balanced in damage or will they just get a similar rate of fire?

 

Also, will the 7/2 get the cool armored cab? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

It is way too early to say how things will be exactly. Like I said, this stage is just identifying the holes, and finding what will fit in there.

But one thing that could compensate for a lower rate of fire, could be that the Russian 37mm has a higher velocity than any of the others.

 

About the armored cap, his comes down the economics. Like I said, this is still very early in the process. Part of the process is budgeting.

If it is deemed worth to have a new Sd.Kfz. 7 base made, then sure.

But if it comes down to there either being a budget for an armored Sd.Kfz. 7, or a half track base for the Soviet Tier 2 and 3 AA guns,  I personally would prefer giving it to the Soviet, as they otherwise would have the same truck for all of their tiers.

[Akinaba 462]

1. First of all, I wonder why you wont chose the GAZ-64 with paired maxim machineguns a T1 soviet AA vehicle.

 

I could ofcourse suggest that another thing you should have in mind, planning this is that basicly the same vehicle AA mount should have a stationary version so it could be placed in the curren AA nest places.

 

Well, for the paired Maxim MG it's not a problem.

Though, coupled variants were not as popular as quadred.

 

Another thing would be it's current existing in the game.

 

2. I see no priblem for SU to have a lend lease M17 quadruple mounted motor carriage. 

 

It was quiet used (amongst many other vehicles ofcourse)

 

3. There is also a 25mm automatic AA 72-K gun which may also be used as T2 Soviet AA as well (though not as interesting as M17)

 

3. DShK is good, like a really good choice, 'cause accordingly to AA detachments descriptions it was like a very often thing. But actual photos of the triple mount in the internets are about zero. Well, overall photos of an AA detachments are not so common overall. So I see DShK comming to HnG gonna have a hard time 

Edited February 8, 2018

[Reto.Christiano 480]

9 hours ago, Akinaba said:

1. First of all, I wonder why you wont chose the GAZ-64 with paired maxim machineguns a T1 soviet AA vehicle.

A couple of reasons:

1) The current 4M GAZ-AAA fits quite well with the other candidates in the Tier 1. And we want to avoid removing content from the game as much we can. - Otherwise if we were to remove the GAZ-AAA we would have to compensate everyone who had already bought it. - Removing content is a last resort we will only consider if it is absolutely necessary.

2) The GAZ-64 with a machine gun is a high candidate on my list of potentially new cars.

3) The GAZ-64 would not allow a full 360º gun traverse, a feature I feel is important for an anti aircraft gun. - The WC-52 has a pretty large truck bed, and with a bit of creative liberty for the sake of gameplay, the gunmount can be placed in the center of the bed to allow the gunner to do a full traverse. This would not be possible on the GAZ-64 since the back is only the size of a seat (and a rather small seat at that).

 

9 hours ago, Akinaba said:

2. I see no priblem for SU to have a lend lease M17 quadruple mounted motor carriage. 

We are trying to move away from Lend Lease equipment to make each faction more unique.

 

9 hours ago, Akinaba said:

3. There is also a 25mm automatic AA 72-K gun which may also be used as T2 Soviet AA as well (though not as interesting as M17)

Like I already said, that or the 94-KM is plan-b, in case the TKB-149 DShK is impossible to get any reference on.