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hchris

Lower powered/alternative scopes

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hchris    240

There have been quite a few mentions by RETO about alternative  (lower powered or otherwise weaker) scopes for regular infantry weapons which would make the Recon scopes "special".

 

What exactly is the intention here, what exactly are you looking into?

 

I am an optics expert with 20 years of research experience and I could help you out with research in this regard if you told us in what direction this should go.

 

From my first thoughts this will not be as easy as some think as there are not a lot of historical options available for the current nations and weapons ingame which are that much lower powered or worse as the ones ingame. So has there been any serious thoughts put into this yet?

 

@Reto.Christiano

Edited

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Akinaba    462

I myself thought if maybe having such topic, but instead of talking solemnly about low-powered scopes I'd suggest to talk about all possible infantry scopes, scope mounts and reticles.

So my suggest would be to have this topic to some scopes as follows:

 

1. Scope name/names

2. Scope rail/mount type(s)

3. Historical note

4. Popularity/production

5. Magnification

6. Field of view (FOW)

7. Reticle(s)

 

Edited

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What we would like is some low powered scope for infantry, and higher powered scopes for recons.

 

The German ZF41 fits the role as an infantry scope perfectly (both in terms of game design, and historically), but finding something similar for the other factions is a bit difficult.

I've been snooping around a bit, but most of those I've found that had potential are either extremely rare or have very little information about them.

 

One scope I'm particularly interested in (also largely by personal interest) is this one:

mTnchYS.jpg

 

I would actually love it if you would make a complete list of all the optics used by our three factions with: Name/Brand/Designation - Magnification - FOV - Intended/Actial Usage - What guns they were mounted on - and if possible production numbers (or at least an indication of how common or rare they are).

 

With that we might reevaluate the current scope selection.

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GermanSoldier    3,795
4 hours ago, Reto.Christiano said:

The German ZF41

 

Though there is two problems with this

 

1. On the K98 the position of the scope is extremely far forward (though this allows you to load with clips which is neat), idk how much the game has the ability to simulate that especially with the scope picture, but it would be quiet different from the majority of other scopes

 

2. The G43 can not possibly use a ZF41 (i think so far i have only seen one post war modification that had a rail welded to it, and the question would be if that would work at all)

 

On a further note only the MKB 42 and a handful of Mp43/1s had an integral mount for the ZF 41, but considering the historical state of the other two scopes it would probably be for the best to drop the Assault rifle scopes completely 

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Jacky95    2,354

Complete list of PU variants list by Alexander Yuschenko from Ratnik collection, with production numbers and factory name

https://snipercollection.com/2014/12/23/1515/

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?268991-PU-sniper-scopes-1940-1945

Spoiler

3.jpg3.jpg

4.jpg

1.jpg

5.jpg

 

 

PPsH nigh time scope? 

Spoiler

Image result for Soviet ww2 opticsaOCMIh2.png

 

images of Russian PU, PEM scopes

https://snipercollection.com/category/1918-to-1945/russian-scopes/

Edited

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@Reto.Christiano The ZF-41 scope would indeed suit perfectly for the Kar98k and it would be somewhat ok for the STG (not perfect because the MkB was really using it, almost the exact same weapon so i think it would still fit okay?) But a few things i'm a bit skeptical about it:

 

1. The scope would probably be worse than the iron sights if the iron sights aren't going to be made realistic size, if the scope's size would stay synchronized to the size of the sights the scope would be probably terrible. Pic below showing that it's quite small irl but it would be absolutely tiny if those irons would be H&G size.

Kuvahaun tulos haulle zf41 scope

 

2. It couldn't be mounted on G43, FG42 (not entirely sure about FG) or STG. On STG it would be okay since as i said earlier it's basically almost the same weapon, a different scope mount would be appreciated if STG was able to mount the MkB sight rail thing. But what would be the solution for G43? Reto logic is probably what's going to happen tho :P 

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1 hour ago, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

2. It couldn't be mounted on G43, FG42 (not entirely sure about FG) or STG. On STG it would be okay since as i said earlier it's basically almost the same weapon, a different scope mount would be appreciated if STG was able to mount the MkB sight rail thing. But what would be the solution for G43? Reto logic is probably what's going to happen tho :P 

 

A ZF-41 on a Gewehr-43 is no more unlikely than one on a STG-44.

The Gewehr-41(W) was used with the ZF-40 (essentially the same as the ZF-41), and the Gewehr-43 is as closer related to the Gewehr-41 than the STG-44 is to the MkB-42(H).

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2 minutes ago, Reto.Christiano said:

 

A ZF-41 on a Gewehr-43 is no more unlikely than one on a STG-44.

The Gewehr-41(W) was used with the ZF-40 (essentially the same as the ZF-41), and the Gewehr-43 is as closer related to the Gewehr-41 than the STG-44 is to the MkB-42(H).

Oh okay, didn't know that.

Sorry if i go a bit off-topic here, but i've been curious for some time about what kind of stuff do you actually do at Reto? I've understood that you have done coding, vehicle related stuff mostly, searching for info here at RRR section of the forum and such. Your forum thing says "Technical Graphic Artist" but i don't really know what that means. Because it's technical i don't think you aren't a normal graphics artist i guess :P 

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hchris    240
35 minutes ago, Reto.Christiano said:

 

A ZF-41 on a Gewehr-43 is no more unlikely than one on a STG-44.

The Gewehr-41(W) was used with the ZF-40 (essentially the same as the ZF-41), and the Gewehr-43 is as closer related to the Gewehr-41 than the STG-44 is to the MkB-42(H).

But still.....the STG44 and Gewehr 43 never mounted those.

 

ZF-40 or ZF-41 were only used by the kar98k, Gewehr 41(M) and (W), Mkb42 (W). Only weapon ingame of those is the Kar98k.

 

For the US and SU factions there are even less lower powered scopes available. 

 

Alternatively we could add older scope variants like the PEM for SU, M73B1 for US etc and give them a different disadvantage. 

 

Honestly I would go for the historical solution. Give all factions the scopes that were really available for those weapons.

 

I can easily provide a list of the majority of scopes available for all 3 factions  (except maybe a few rare optics) for the currently ingame weapons as I have this data available on my computer. 

 

Will do so in Xmas holiday. Maybe this will get us another step closer. 

Edited

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GermanSoldier    3,795
2 hours ago, Reto.Christiano said:

A ZF-41 on a Gewehr-43 is no more unlikely than one on a STG-44.

 

Neither the STG nor the G43 has the integral rail for the ZF mount though, and the sight attached rail (as on the K98) does not work with either of the guns. Which actually makes it virtually impossible that either of the guns used the scope.

 

The G41(w) and G43 have a handful of similar parts and a similar look, but the essential parts in this regard are not. And the same is to say about the STG and the Mp43/1

 

As i said earlier, only the G41 and MKB 42 as well as a handful of Mp43/1s  had integral rails to use a Zf 41 mount.

 

3 hours ago, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

not entirely sure about FG

 

I highly doubt it, on the Late Fg42 there is no way, on the early Fg42 (which is the one in game, where as talking about it it has the wrong scope mount as well) there might be a slim chance that the mkb zf mount potentially fits but i honestly doubt it due to the dimensions of the respective mounts

 

1 hour ago, hchris said:

the historical solution.

 

Though the historical solution would be to remove scopes from infantry

 

And imo it is still the best option to run with, Just give infantry a 1.5 or 2x iron sight zoom which is essentially the same as giving them scopes, but without the scopes and the hassle of not even being able to find a valid addition

Edited

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BrandonSolo10    3,562

I will have to agree with @GermanSoldier concerning scopes mounted on elite weapons.

 

I personally the only infantry weapons that should have scopes are semi-automatic rifles and bolt-action rifles, and even then only low-zoom variants to prevent the sheer amount of abuse we currently are dealing with.

 

Also, scopes on machine guns might be an interesting idea to consider, but only after a complete LMG overhaul.

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Jacky95    2,354
20 hours ago, Reto.Christiano said:

:

 

I would actually love it if you would make a complete list of all the optics used by our three factions with: Name/Brand/Designation - Magnification - FOV - Intended/Actial Usage - What guns they were mounted on - and if possible production numbers (or at least an indication of how common or rare they are).

 

With that we might reevaluate the current scope selection.

 

9 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

 

 

1 hour ago, BrandonSolo10 said:

 

 

Our job here is to list all the scopes with all the data possible,so please stay on topic.

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BrandonSolo10    3,562
Just now, Jacky95 said:

 

 

 

Our job here is to list all the scopes with all the data possible,so please stay on topic.

 

My bad, I was just replying.

 

Anyways, the Zf41's scope mount seems to be rather simplistic and easy to mount:

 

msr476.5.jpg

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GermanSoldier    3,795
6 hours ago, Jacky95 said:

Our job here is to list all the scopes with all the data possible,so please stay on topic.

 

If i have not gotten this correct, this is for reference and historical things.

 

And the historical base in this case is simple, regular infantry didnt have scopes

 

6 hours ago, BrandonSolo10 said:

, the Zf41's scope mount seems to be rather simplistic and easy to mount

 

Both ZF 41 and its mount are extremely easy and simple, as the ZF 41s in fact are not designed as real "scopes" but more as an aiming help (similar to a modern ACOG or Red Dot) 

 

The K98 has the ZF 41 mount rail to the right of the actual irons, this rail can be installed on all rifles with a similar sight block to the K98

k98%20zf41%20adapter%20rail%20(1)8-500x5

zf-41-rail-mount-for-german-k98-sniper-s

 

Since both G41 and G43 rear sights are quiet different from the K98 rearsight, this mount doesnt work. 

 

On the G41w it is vastly different though, an integral rail is milled into the sight block and not even all got this either, and this is to hold the Zf 40 with its straddle mount, not even a zf41 (not certain if the zf40 straddle can hold a zf41 though)

g41_scope66.jpgg41_scope56.jpg

 

this has two rails that fit onto the milled parts on the G41 sight (i couldnt find any decent picture of that, but its 2 small rails on the left and right of the irons) and is fixed in place with the screw

 

This is the same system and sight mount as on the mkb42 and the handful of Mp43/1s 

mkb42-h.jpg

mp431_652ab.jpg

 

 

The early FG42 (the model in the game) is using a similar straddle to mount a ZF 4, though this mount seems to be a lot larger and higher to accommodate for the regular fg sights 

replica_fg42_sniper_zfg42_3_0912_956.jpg

also notice that this is a ZFG 42, and not a regular ZF 4

 

On the late model fg42 this is done different again by the use of this two blocks whos name i will probably never know in english

FG42_ScopeLeft.jpg

 

 

 

Something interesting for the last part, is that the ZF 4 intended for the very few STGs with spot welded rails is not the same as the ZF 4 for the fg42 or G/K43

Also usually the scopes where marked with what gun they where intended for, so there is special scopes marked ZF 4 K43, ZF 4 FG42 and some ZF 4 Kurzpatrone (for use with the stg)

 

The main reason for this ease of mounting is that they where not supposed to be carried on the gun 24/7 but when not needed taken off and stored in a little box like this one

pos2.jpg

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GermanSoldier    3,795
22 minutes ago, Jacky95 said:

well the Hungarian army did not get the heads up than

 

i cant remember them having scopes on every corner, and if i go look at pictures there is also just a handful of guys with scopes.

 

The stressing point here is regular infantry which is the average conscript that you get to see. I cant remember any army during ww2 that had a scoped rifle in every average infantry squad.

 

The closest you will get is the Zielfernrohrschütze (sniper) that in theory would be attached to a Wehrmacht platoon HQ (note HQ, not even the Zug itself), which means on average there is 1 "sniper" for every 30 men that would be dispatched according to need and judgement of the Platoon commander - and even this sniper was signed down by Battalion command to the Platoon

So compared to an average of:

6 SMGs

3 LMGs

and 21 rifles, you can easily see that the amount of scopes in the regular infantry unit is rather low to not existing.

 

IMO the recon as infantry based subclass (which it really is rather than its own special class as for now) did this perfectly well, in both: letting players be the sniper while not over saturating the match with scoped guns And keeping a basic historical accuracy.

Edited

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GermanSoldier    3,795
1 minute ago, Jacky95 said:

 

but we don't have subclasses, do we? and until than marksmen infantry are within infantry. plus with this shirt visibility in game, we need scopes to see the bush wookies.

 

But alright, I will stop this with this last post, since our job is what Christiano said.

 

We have the recon, which is basically a subclass just a little more fancy. And with some 1 sniper per average of 300 men, the recon in this game portraied this history perfectly well imo.

Regarding visibility, two wrongs dont equal one right. Bad visibility and bushes is not fixed by spamming scopes, it just makes bad gameplay even worse and one sided towards those that dont have scopes. As i mentioned somewhere else on the forum, bush wookies is also to a big degree fixed by removing scopes from infantry.

 

This is still a historical argument though, so it fits perfectly well in this thread especially when supported by historical examples

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GermanSoldier    3,795
3 minutes ago, Jacky95 said:
  1. and if you take away infantry scopes how will infantry fight back against snipers with camo laying in bushes sniping at spawn, basically stopping the spwaners from reaching the point. ?
  2. regular infantry too had certain individuals who were equipped with scopes, either because of performance or because they had to shoot on ranges around or more than 300 meters..these guys were called marksmen in some militaries and they were part of the infantry.

 

 

1. You limit the sniper scopes back to 6x or similar, you give the infantry a basic iron sight zoom mod of 1.5x or 2x (there is a point at where you can add historical scopes that take this magnification, only to guns that used them though, like a k98 zf41, there would practically be no difference granted all iron sights are made pleasant to use, and each faction gets effectively the same) 

 

2. That is what i was talking about with the German Zielfernrohrschütze (literally translation to scope riflemen), virtually all snipers during the war where infantry based and in one form or another assigned to infantry units to support them, there is very few examples of the typical sniper teams as we know them today (with a sniper and a spotter) and even those where usually attached to an infantry unit for support. The US for example didnt make any use of sniper teams, while the Soviets and Brits made far more use sniper teams than anyone else, while the Germans again used a mix of lone snipers, sniper teams and marksmen assigned to infantry units for direct support when needed.

 

The way that the RTS somewhat simulated that by enabling a general to command a "recon" or sniper unit into a battle, basically assigning them to an infantry unit to support was very well both gameplay relevant and realistic. It was then up to the player if he wanted to be the solo sniper/ marksmen that just follows the infantry around and helps where he can, or if he teams up with a friend to play the sniper team and take out valuable targets or suppress the enemy, as the game puts it "sting where it hurts"

 

With the current meta all this "minigame" where you have to make tactical decisions as a general, where a decent sniper can prove a real pain in the butt or where you possibly call in your own recon support because of problems regarding stiff hostile resistance or enemy snipers, is gone.

 

Infantry has become the universal to go with class, there is no need for tactical thinking as a general or thinking about holding some reinforcements like tanks or recons back line to possibly send them in should problems occur.

 

Lets be real here, what do you do if you get sniped multiple times? You either take your car and hunt him, or you switch to your own scoped rifle and counter snipe. Similar to how when tanks appear the first thought is not "oh damn we need tanks" but "oh god damn i have to switch to rambo, again" 

 

Imho, it is both more realistic and more fun to have scopes reserved for a somewhat special class that needs its own resource. Scopes and snipers where simply not common in ww2.

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45 minutes ago, GermanSoldier said:

6 SMGs

3 LMGs

and 21 rifles, you can easily see that the amount of scopes in the regular infantry unit is rather low to not existing.

6 SMGs? But aren't the squad leaders the only ones with them? And the second in command got either a Kar or Gewehr 41/43?

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GermanSoldier    3,795
11 minutes ago, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

6 SMGs? But aren't the squad leaders the only ones with them? And the second in command got either a Kar or Gewehr 41/43?

 

According to the late war figure of squad setups there is 1 SL, 1 Assistent SL, 1 SMG, 4 Designated riflemen, 1 MG and 1 Assistent MG (total of 9 per squad with 3 squads per platoon).

 

 since weaponry varied a lot through out the war and through out the units you could potentially even find a squad that had no SMG and just rifles. But theory is that there is at least 1 to 2 SMGs per squad. In pure theory the Assistent SL could also be issued an SMG, which would bring it up to 3 SMGs per squad, but imo 2 SMGs per squad is the most logical and also somewhat common thing.

 

The G41/43 and STG where just considered rifles, so they are included in the theoretic 21 rifles

 

ps. Why does the forum change the short form of Assistent to butt?! 

Edited

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hchris    240

Sorry this is not really the thread to discuss. 

 

Christiano gave us a job. We should work on this in this thread.

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