Reto.Christiano

Soviet Halftrack

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I wouldn't mind finding a replacement for the Lend Lease M3 for the Soviets, so I've been on a lookout for an armored infantry half-track (armored terrain capable wheeled truck would also be acceptable).

 

I've had my eyes on the ZIS-22 based series (largely because the pivoting track unit is cool as love - although the game doesn't have a way to simulate that at the moment), and I know that there was an infantry transport version of the unarmored ZIS-42.

pic_46.jpg

So the problem with the ZIS-42 is that it is unarmored, so it is basically like the GAZ-AAA cargo truck, but with tracks.

 

An armored version was made, the ZIS-41 which was used as an artillery tractor and as base for a self propelled gun.

zis41s03-02690271982d6ac26600456ac3b6e66

The ZIS-43 was used as a self propelled AA gun, and also saw some use as a cargo transport. But I have not seen it in an infantry transport configuration.

zis41s14-46dffe3bde363561ff526fd00cf0e43

 

While the armored ZIS-41 and 43 were fairly successful as gun carriers, they are noted to have a big problem with the cabin getting extremely hot. 40-50ºc (during the winter when it was -10ºc outside), making it rather uncomfortable to drive.

zis41s07-dc024026d637962e784019eff9f86d6

 

An armored troop carrier version named the TB-42 was build as a wooden mockup, and 5 vehicles were ordered for prototyping, but before these were build they were canceled again since the ZIS-42 would perform poorly with the additional weight.

pic_52.jpg

 

The TB-42 project became the B-3 which used the tracks from a T-70, but this too was abandoned while in prototype stage.

img_4.jpg

 

So if anyone has additional information about any of the above being used as armored infantry transports, or have a suggestion for another vehicle that would fit the bill, I'd like to know.

 

A couple of links:

http://warspot.ru/8332-polugusenichnye-eksperimenty

http://armedman.ru/avtobronetehnika/1937-1945-avtobronetehnika/polugusenichnyiy-bronetransportyor-tb-42.html

http://www.gruzovikpress.ru/article/3406-istoriya-razrabotki-nati-52-zis-42-polugusenichnye-vezdehody-nati/

http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/zis42/zis42.html

 

 

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Hastur_    169

All info what you find is correct. SU dont have own armored halftrack. After B-3 all project was closed.

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Jacky95    2,354

sadly as Hastur_ said there were no Soviet armored infantry transport vehicles.....

If we would want to change the M3 half track to something more Soviet than the mentioned prototypes are what we can choose from.......  

 

There is the Gaz-AA with the DsHK, it would not be as long of a stretch as the prototypes.......it could serve as a tier 2 APC with a gun....

 

Altho the Soviets used a lot of lend lease equipment, even British tanks, which the Axis forces fought against pretty regularly, so in my own opinion, the Soviet M3 is something that should be left in the arsenal....

 

Actuall there was some

there was a topic about this.(about soviet vehicles,)

the ZIS-42 you mention very well could be a new, or the Tier one Soviet APC. As for tier 2:

 

Gaz-AA with Maxim

mw7244.jpgone maxim heavy mg and a DT mg

 

Gaz-AA with 20mm gun

60126_900.jpg20mm and a DT

 

M3 variant(at least it looks different)

Image result for Soviet ww2 APCone 50cal.

Edited
added suggestions, I have a bad habit to re write my comments....

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Hastur_    169
24 minutes ago, Jacky95 said:

sadly as Hastur_ said there were no Soviet armored infantry transport vehicles.....

If we would want to change the M3 half track to something more Soviet than the mentioned prototypes are what we can choose from.......  

 

There is the Gaz-AA with the DsHK, it would not be as long of a stretch as the prototypes.......it could serve as a tier 2 APC with a gun....

 

Altho the Soviets used a lot of lend lease equipment, even British tanks, which the Axis forces fought against pretty regularly, so in my own opinion, the Soviet M3 is something that should be left in the arsenal....

 

Actuall there was some

there was a topic about this.(about soviet vehicles,)

the ZIS-42 you mention very well could be a new, or the Tier one Soviet APC. As for tier 2:

 

Gaz-AA with Maxim

mw7244.jpgone maxim heavy mg and a DT mg

 

Gaz-AA with 20mm gun

60126_900.jpg20mm and a DT

 

M3 variant(at least it looks different)

Image result for Soviet ww2 APCone 50cal.

 

I think that armored inf vehicle is not nesessery thing, M3 took his place and change it with prototype vehicle, even if that B-3 makes no sense.

 

That is M3 Scout car. In total, they bought a little more than three thousand

Spoiler

 

167bd38a873d6fab5548b94eff48c6e0.jpg

 

225_big.jpg

 

M3A1_6.jpg

 

So if we talk about replacing of M3 Half-track Land-lease we mean or another land lease or prototype.

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GermanSoldier    3,795

I dont know what vehicles are up for discussion, but since all halftrack similar vehicles where imported via land lease (Universal Carrier, M3 Haltrack, M3 scout car) maybe some tank based tractors/ carriers would solve the problem?

 

I know that there was tests and trials on the T26 to be converted to either APCs or at least Artillery tractors

For example the TR 1 and TR 4 however if i recall correctly neither made it past a prototype stage

 

other than that, there was a series of T34s converted to arty tractors/ recovery vehicles, granted it would be somewhat open, and the drivers hatch would work similar as on the other APCs, that could work as sort of giant komsomolets.

 

Though i think keeping the M3 at this point is the best option, since there is simply nothing similar on the SU side that was self made and actually produced in quantities that would make it a viable replacement 

 

Though you can replace the Wla 42 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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AfonsoQQ    3,011

@Reto.Christiano

I found another intresting attempt of making an APC out of the BA-10 armored car, the BA-22

The problem, pretty much like any other soviet APC attempt, it never passed proto phase,its not really an halftrack and since its a full enclosed APC doesnt seems to fit the current counterparts. (plus theres no way to find stats on it)

Im pretty sure if they used the ZIS-43 as cargo carrier, then they would have used it to transport troops, i think its your best option right there.

 

The BA-22 (1938)

FXviz4I.jpg

SX8xWJB.jpg

Edited

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Jacky95    2,354

I would take an up armored GAZ-AA with a mg's over a prototype that was never meant to be produced all day everyday...even if it wasn't used too much...

 

another improvised APC:

Spoiler

Image result for GAZ-AA armored truck

 

 

1 hour ago, AfonsoQQ said:

The BA-22 (1938)

But it doesn't have a gun.....:(

Edited

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Fegaris    1,744

What about Voroshilovets, its originaly like truck for taking some cargo and for taking artilery guns here and there, but was also used for soldiers transporation.

CPQH9ev.jpg

voroshilovets.jpg

qj30tEJ.jpg

WhT1MX6.jpg

12aabc3ed6b6d0e9b6a57d70cbcd20e1.jpg

 

here taking T35 from troubles.

ybJ6MUl.jpg

 

 

Issue for me would be that driver is not much covered from fire, but looks interesting.

 

Measures:

Weight: 15 500kg

Lenght: 6 218mm

Width: 2 850mm

Height: 2 736mm

Ground clearence: 460mm

 

Engine:

V-2V or B (12 cylinders, 38 880cm3, water cooled diesel)

or rarely in stopgap  M-17T (12 cylinders, 46 930cm3, water cooled gasoline)

kW: 218

top road speed: 36km/h

top terrain seed: 20km/h

cruising range on road: 270km

cruising range on terrain: 120 - 130km

 

capacity: 3 000kg or 3 (in cabin)+16(cargo place) men

in the hinge: 22 000kg

 

 

-Proško E.: Artilerijskije tjagači KA, Bronekolekcija spec.No.3, Modělist-Konstruktor, Moskva 2002

 

Edited

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1 hour ago, AfonsoQQ said:

I found another intresting attempt of making an APC out of the BA-10 armored car, the BA-22

The problem, pretty much like any other soviet APC attempt, it never passed proto phase,its not really an halftrack and since its a full enclosed APC doesnt seems to fit the current counterparts. (plus theres no way to find stats on it)

Im pretty sure if they used the ZIS-43 as cargo carrier, then they would have used it to transport troops, i think its your best option right there.

 

The BA-22 (1938)

 

The BA-22 was a prototype armored ambulance (or mobile medic station). Only one build, so not much better than the TB-42 or B-3.

But it's cool nontheless (and it was amphibious)

 

13 minutes ago, Fegaris said:

What about Voroshilovets

Quite interesting. Will keep that in mind.

Although being unarmored the ZIS-42 would be a better candidate.

There are other artillery tractors, such as the Ya-12 and Komintern, but I can't think of an armored one (besides the Komsomolets).

 

Also, if anyone can find pictures of the M3 in Soviet use with non-US armament, that would be cool too.

 

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silverlik    90

Soviet ADG-Lorry

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet/ADG-Lorry-1941.php

 

Only three made, but it was Soviet / Estonian. (Well, actually, it's literally an Austrian truck design, with armor plates strapped onto it...)

 

17 minutes ago, Reto.Christiano said:

There are other artillery tractors, such as the Ya-12 and Komintern, but I can't think of an armored one (besides the Komsomolets).

 

Maybe the STZ-5?

stz_2.jpgee170fc4-87de-46c1-b65e-f6f1ee3

 

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Jacky95    2,354

 

@Reto.Christiano I found something..... the Universal Carrier Mk.II APC.

Its a lend lease, but its armed with a Soviet mg, used by the Soviets and it is an APC.

Wikipedia says that:

Quote

USSR – received 200 before the war and 2,560 Universal and Lloyd carriers during WWII

 

in the description they say that this video is from:

Quote

 

Red Army 14th Mechanized Brigade, 4th Guards Mechanized Corps, Southern Europe 1944 (WW2)

 

 

 

APC UC USSR ww2 foto

 

So far this is the only video and image of this APC in Soviet use that i could find.

Edited

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AfonsoQQ    3,011
12 hours ago, Jacky95 said:

 

 

So far this is the only video and image of this APC in Soviet use that i could find.

 

I wouldnt recomend the Universal carrier, the passangers are super exposed, its quite small and wouldnt have the capacity of the others. Its literally like the T-20 but with no cover at all. 

PDq2d5F.png

VqmoqEm.jpg

 

Edited

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Jacky95    2,354
8 hours ago, AfonsoQQ said:

 

I wouldnt recomend the Universal carrier, the passangers are super exposed, its quite small and wouldnt have the capacity of the others. Its literally like the T-20 but with no cover at all. 

 

 

 

6

well, but aside from this, the others mostly are un armed vehicles, and reverting from an M3 to a un armed APC is ...reverting from something good to something worse...

the only APC's that are armed and armored so far are the GAZ-AA truck with 20mm and Maxim gun conversions, and the Universal.......and after all the SU faction has gone through i don't want to lose an armed APC

If Su looses the M3 we lose the only heavy mg we had....because for some reason the DsHK was not added

 

Edited

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AfonsoQQ    3,011
9 hours ago, Jacky95 said:

well, but aside from this, the others mostly are un armed vehicles, and reverting from an M3 to a un armed APC is ...reverting from something good to something worse...

the only APC's that are armed and armored so far are the GAZ-AA truck with 20mm and Maxim gun conversions, and the Universal.......and after all the SU faction has gone through i don't want to lose an armed APC

If Su looses the M3 we lose the only heavy mg we had....because for some reason the DsHK was not added

 

I still think the ideal option is keeping the M3, since the soviets never really had an iconic APC of theyr own.

I still think the ZIS-42 would go well with the M4 tractor and the Raupenschlepper Ost, (if Reto was to make a new APC category ofc)

 

Spoiler

H6Ufnq5.jpg

Spoiler

d8kXztE.jpg

 

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GermanSoldier    3,795
9 hours ago, Jacky95 said:

well, but aside from this

 

i wouldnt really go as far as calling the Universal an armored vehicle, its more or less a bad t20, virtually the entire crew is exposed to enemy fire, and in addition if i recall correctly it can only seat about 4 to 6 people (though not as much of a problem as the fact that everyone can easily be shot)

 

sticking with the m3 halftrack is the best thing in this case (on a tiny side note, loosing that m2 or not wouldnt make a difference)

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Jacky95    2,354
7 minutes ago, GermanSoldier said:

sticking with the m3 halftrack is the best thing in this case

agree

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hchris    240
On ‎13‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 10:53 PM, Reto.Christiano said:

Also, if anyone can find pictures of the M3 in Soviet use with non-US armament, that would be cool too.

 

 

As far as I know (and I also asked around), the M3s in Soviet use always kept the 50cal Browning M2 machine guns, so I don't think we can pictures like this sadly.

 

If you really want to replace the M3, I suggest you should use the ZIS-42M, although it is unarmored.

 

 

Btw wouldn't it be cool too to replace the lend lease 42WLA in Soviet use currently ingame with the Ural M72 (with side car and mounted DP28 mg)?

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Junell    128

The Voroshilovets is really cool. If a large slow mobile spawn is what you are looking for the tracked YaG-10 could also be an option.

 

YaG-10_2.jpg

YaG-10_3.jpg

 

Could I suggest implementing this type of truck as a 3-crate option in addition to the Lend Lease M3? And maybe with the Sd.Kfz 7 as a GE equivalent?

 

Ps. The Voroshilovets looks really nice with the canvas rolled up. ;)

voroshilovec_8.jpg

Edited

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Junell    128

There is also the option of changing the T-20 Komsomolets to fit into a APC role. Closing the front and side windows to protect the driver, and open the top hatches to give some protection to passengers, plus adding canvas to further conceal the passengers. It could fit the role. Good protection for driver and gunner, and the small size should make up for crappy passenger protection.

 

T-20%20Komsomolez_2.jpg

Edited

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AfonsoQQ    3,011
On 13/09/2017 at 9:53 PM, Reto.Christiano said:

 

 

EUREKA!!

I bought this book 2 days ago (Armored fighting vehicles by Philip Trewhitt) about armored vehicles of WWII, on the Armored car section it mentions the BA-10, now the intresting part is that this book claims that most of the BA-10 armored cars that remained in soviet service (because big part was captured by the Axis forces and re-used in anti partisan warfare) were converted into APCs after 1942

 

So i did some more research about this topic and found this:

f24c0Dv.jpg

 

It seems they were used in Karelia, the 1st Armored Car Company was using such BA-10s in 1944

10 were being used.

 

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/battles/Karelia44/Armored_Karelian_July_20_44.htm

 

This seems to be the same type of machine but being used by the germans

7KV3gjC.jpg

 

The 2nd picture proves more than 1 existed, this seems to be the perfect candidate!

 

Now i also have this intresting picture, it seems to be a ZIS-6 converted into APC

Spoiler

RyW7LPf.jpg

 

 

Axis History forum topic on such APC

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=162089

 

Also this  pictures of some ZIS-6's that were apparently converted into APC

Spoiler

 

QdhpSIy.jpg

lnmMEr5.jpg

bWsQkIB.png

 

This one is a bit weird conversion:

6PdnfYM.jpg

 

 

Edited

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