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logrouacidskor

Project 'Close Combat' Tech Tree Explanation

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Before read this thread
1. This is purely my own proposal, not Reto's Official Project
2. No 'Bias' included, I'm the Player who plays all 3 Factions equally
3. I try best as I could to keep balance between 'Historical Accuracy' & 'Reality' & 'Game Balance'
4. Remember even if my proposal are accept and release to ingame by Reto, Its all up to Reto who set Detail Specification & Balanced of the Contents, not me
5. Please keep productive conversation on comment, I welcome productive discussion as well


This thread is about 'Bayonet Tech Tree' & Issue of Current Bayonets
Please check it out Project 'Close Combat' before read this

Spoiler

 



1. Each faction's Bayonets are unbalanced
As I told before on Project 'Close Combat'
Current H&G's Bayonets are not balanced

US has 1 Short Knife
GE has 1 Long Knife
SU has 1 Short, 1 Long Knife

So as Reto filled the missing parts of LMG Tech Tree, I think its time to fill the missing gaps on Bayonets too
This is the Tech Tree I consider of
 

Spoiler

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Just like LMG, I think 3 Tier of Tech Tree on Bayonets will be appropriate for adjust balance & options that players can choose
Plus, it would be great if there are some different characteristic between different Tier Bayonets
This is my personal Idea of getting balance for each Tier Bayonets

1. Stabbing Speed : Tier 1  > Tier 2 > Tier 3
Tier 1 Bayonets are Lightest and Smallest Bayonets, so their Stabbing Speed is Fastest
Stabbing Speed gets slower as Bayonets gets Longer, and Heavier

2. Range & Damage : Tier 3 > Tier 2 > Tier 1
Of course, as Bayonets gets Longer, the Range gets Longer
As Blade gets Longer too, the Damage would more deadly because it would punch more deeply on flesh 

3. Spawn Timer : Tier 3 > Tier 2 > Tier 1
Its the Weapon Tech Tree that has different specs, so the Spawn Timer must different for each Tier Bayonet
Ex) Tier 3 Bayonets have Longest Range & Highest Damage, so they should get longer Spawn Timer than Tier 1 or 2

These 3 Concepts above would balanced between Different Tier Bayonets
Plus, giving Different Specs to Different Tier makes players have options to choose which bayonets as their play style
It would be like this
Tier 1 Bayonets are Fast Stabbing, but Short Range & Low Damage
Tier 2 Bayonets are Middle Ground of all Spec, Decent Stabbing Speed, Decent Range, Decent Damage
Tier 2 Bayonets are Slow Stabbing, but Long Range, High Damage

(Remember that setting Detail Specs are Reto's job, not mine)

Now, I'll explain the Detail of each Bayonets on Tech Trees



US

Tier 1. 1219C2 Combat Knife -> M4 Bayonet
 

Spoiler

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1219C2 Combat Knife
Blade Length : 7 inch (18 cm)
Full Length : 11.8 inch (30.16 cm)

Its already exist in game, and I found no evidence that the Size or Length is wrong compared to real one on H&G's 1219C2 Combat Knife
No Problem on in game Size, but had Issue about Model itself
Almost none of this 1219C2 Combat Knifes aren't used on US 'Army' at European Theater during WW2
The 1219C2 Bayonet so called 'KA-Bar' is for Marines & Navies on Pacific, even H&G's Combat Knife has 'USMC'(United States Marine Corp) Marking on its Blade
I found no evidence that any of US Army Soldiers used 1219C2 Combat Knife on European Theater

 

Spoiler

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M4 Bayonet
Blade Length : 6.75 inch (17.1 cm)
Full Length : 11.75 inch (29.8 cm)
It can attached to M1 (Later Type), MA1 (Later Type), M2 Carbine

The US Army on European Theater usually used 3 major types of knifes
1. M1 Bayonet for M1 Garand Rifle
2. M3 Fighting Knife (Trench Knife)
3. M4 Bayonet for Carbines 
M4 Bayonet is Modified version of M3 Fighting Knife to be Bayonet of Carbine family (usually M1 Carbine, later M2 Carbine)

M4 Bayonet should must replaces current 1219C2 Bayonet, because its more Historically Accurate and make sense
+ Have possibility of attach M4 Bayonet on Carbine Families on H&G
But I know Reto didn't want to remove what they already introduce in game, but I think they should change this
(Hope Reto had enough time & resource of it)

Its almost shortest US Army Bayonet used on WW2, so I put this on Tier 1



Tier 2. M1 Bayonet
 

Spoiler

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M1 Bayonet
Blade Length : 10 inch (25.4 cm)
Full Length : 14 inch (35.6 cm)
It can attached to M1903 Springfield Series Rifles, and M1 Garand Rifle

The famous M1 Garand Rifle's Bayonet, The M1 Bayonet was designed on 1943 as shorter version of early M1905 Bayonet
Its was originally M1905 Bayonet which was M1903 Springfield Rifle's Bayonet, so M1 Bayonet can attached to M1903 Springfield Rifle too, but usually that didn't happened a lot 
It was largest numbers of Bayonet that used on US Army during WW2, its literally 'Service Bayonet' that almost every Army Rifle Man was given
I put M1 Bayonet on Tier 2 because it has Medium Length & Size
Can't find more appropriate Model than this on Tier 2



Tier 3. M1905 Bayonet
 

Spoiler

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M1905 Bayonet
Blade Length : 16 inch (40.6 cm)
Full Length : 20 inch (50.8 cm)
It can attached to M1903 Springfield Series Rifles, and M1 Garand Rifle

Just like Gewehr 98's Seitengewehr 98/05 Bayonet, The M905 Bayonet is WW1 Era Bayonet too
Its originally designed for M1903 Springfield Rifle Series but it can possible to attached on M1 Garand Rifle too, and it was Official M1 Garand's Bayonet until 1943 when new M1 Bayonet was introduced
The WW2 version of M1905 Bayonet was called M1924 by Collectors but that designation was never used officially on US Army

I put this M1905 Bayonet as Tier 3 because its longer than Tier 2 M1 Bayonet
There is also the M1917 Bayonet which is similar to M1905 Bayonet, but I choose M1905 rather than M1917 Bayonet
M1917 Bayonet(17 inch Blade) is more longer than M1905 Bayonet so it might be more unbalanced compared to SU & GE's Tier 3 Bayonet (besides, M1905 is already longer than SU & GE's Tier 3)
+ almost every M1917 Bayonet that used on WW2 was 'Trench Gun' Shotgun version and none of them are for M1 Garand or M1903 Springfield Rifles




GE

Tier 1. Seitengewehr 42
 

Spoiler

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Seitengewehr 42
Blade Length : 7 inch (18 cm)
Full Length : 12 inch (30 cm)
It can attached to G41, Kar98k, MKb 42(H)

Seitengewehr 42 is latest model of German Army Bayonet, designed at 1942 but produced small numbers before WW2 ends
No more new model of Bayonets has designed or produced after Seitengewehr 42
Its designed as Multi-Purpose Utility Knife (as you can see second picture), also can used as Bayonet of Kar98k and other Weapons
Its not famous, nor produced large amounts but I put this as Tier 1 Bayonet because its most appropriate model of Tier 1
I found other Short Length Bayonets too, but this one was 'Official Army Bayonet' so I think its more worth it 



Tier 2. M1884/98 III Bayonet
 

Spoiler

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M1884/98 III Bayonet 
Blade Length : 10 inch (25.4 cm)
Full Length : 15.25 inch (38.7 cm)
It can attached to G41, Kar98k, MKb 42(H) 
(G43 and StG 44 can't attach Bayonet because lack of Bayonet Lug)

M1884/98 III Bayonet, known as 'Seitengewehr 84/98 III' is German Bayonet of Late WW1 ~ WW2 Era German Army
It replaced previous Seitengewehr 98/05 and became Standard german army rifle Bayonet
Its designed as Kar98k Rifle's Bayonet but can attach to G41 Rifle and MKb 42(H) too
Just like US Tier 2 M1 Bayonet, this Bayonet has 10 inchs of Blade so I put this Model as Tier 2
+ Its Standard Issue Army Rifle Bayonet on WW2


PS. lot of people misunderstand that MP34's Bayonet is this model too, but it doesn't
MP34 Bayonet is Completely Different Model



Tier 3. Seitengewehr 98/05

Spoiler

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Seitengewehr 98/05
Blade Length : 14.6 inch (37 cm)
Full Length : 19.75 inch (50 cm)
It can attached to Kar98k

Just like US M1905 Bayonet, Seitengewehr 98/05 was developed during WW1 as Bayonet of Gewehr 98 which was Standard Rifle of that Era, but can attach to Kar98k too
 

Spoiler


Kar98k with Seitengewehr 98/05


Original version was Seitengewehr 98 but it was too long and that leads to shorter version Seitengewehr 98/05
Its known as 'Butcher Blade' by the Allies during WW1 due to its distinctive shape (The Blade Surface gets wider like machete)
Early version has Teeth on top of the blade and that version was called 'Saw-back' but soon became very unpopular on both sides of the frontline.
The French and British soldier killed the German soldiers on the spot if not tortured when they captured Germans carrying such bayonets.  
For this reason German order was issued in 1917, that all 'Saw-back' bayonets have their teeth removed. (see the picture below)

Spoiler

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(Saw-Back version beneath)

As I said on Tier 2 GE Bayonet, just before WW1 Ended, The 'M1884/98 III Bayonet' was introduced to replace longer & inefficient Seitengewehr 98/05 and used as Standard Bayonet during WW2
But, Seitengewehr 98/05 still used during WW2 as well
I put this Model as Tier 3 because its one of the Longest Bayonet that was actually used during WW2 by German Army, and can attached to Kar98k too

Seitengewehr 98/05 is already in game, as Seitengewehr 98
H&G Official Wiki approves its Seitengewehr 98/05
 

Spoiler

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But, I spot something wield
Is that really Seitengewehr 98/05?

First of all, Its not longer enough
AVS Bayonet is 13 inch Blade while Seitengewehr 98/05 has 14.6 inch Blade
But in H&G, Seitengewehr 98 isn't longer than AVS Bayonet at all
+ H&G Official Wiki said AVS Bayonet is longest Bayonet in game

And second, It doesn't look like Seitengewehr 98/05 at all

So I find out what happened myself , The result was amazing
 

Spoiler

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1. 
I compared AVS-36 Rifle & Bayonet with Real AVS & Bayonet
I found out H&G's both AVS Rifle and Bayonet are almost same size as Real One
Then, I compared to H&G's AVS Bayonet to H&G's Seitengewehr 98/05
It turns out that H&G's Seitengewehr 98/05 has about 3.6 inch Shorter Blade, Total Length was 1.7 inch Shorter than Real Seitengewehr 98/05

 

Spoiler

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2. After that, I compared H&G's Seitengewehr 98/05 to Real Seitengewehr 98/05
And it turns out that H&G's Model has many difference compared to Real Model
Almost looks completely different Model

 

Spoiler

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3. Yep, case solve
H&G's Seitengewehr 98/05 isn't Seitengewehr 98/05 at all
Its M1884/98 III Bayonet, known as S84/98 III or Seitengewehr 84/98 III which I suggested to Tier 2 Bayonet Tech Tree

So, I thinks Reto should change the name of current Seitengewehr 98/05 to M1884/98 III Bayonet



SU

Tier 1. NR-40 'Scout Knife'
 

Spoiler

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NR-40 'Scout Knife'
Blade Length : 6.08 inch (15.2 cm)
Full Length : 10.6 inch (27 cm)
Its Fighting Knife, not a Bayonet so it can't attach to any weapon

The Winter War revealed a number of deficiencies in Soviet weaponry, among other issues, the Soviet infantry lacked a good combat knife.
As a result, in 1940, the Soviet Army adopted the NR-40 know as the 'Scout's Knife'
Its just a small but popular and mass-produced Fighting Knife 
I put his as Tier 1 because its Size & Length are appropriate to its Tier



Tier 2. SVT-40 Bayonet
 

Spoiler

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SVT-40 Bayonet
Blade Length : 9.5 inch (24.2 cm)
Full Length : 14 inch (35.6 cm)
It can attach to SVT-38, SVT-40, AVT-40 and SKT-40

Its the SVT Rifle series's Bayonet, especially for SVT-40, this Bayonet is know as M1940 Bayonet too
Its shorter version of previous SVT-38's Bayonet, the M1938 Bayonet
It has 9.5 inch blade, almost 10 inch just like other Faction's Tier 2 Bayonet so I put this as Tier 2



Tier 3. AVS-36 Bayonet
 

Spoiler

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AVS-36 Bayonet
Blade Length : 13 inch (33 cm)
Full Length : 17.7 inch (45 cm)
It can attach to AVS-36 Only

AVS-36 Bayonet, known as M1936 Bayonet is designed as AVS-36 Rifle Only Bayonet
Its shorter than other Tier 3 Bayonets like M1905 Bayonet or Seitengewehr 98/05, but its still worth of Tier 3 
There is other option, the SVT-38's Bayonet 'M1938 Bayonet' and its about 1~3 inch longer than AVS-36 Bayonet
But AVS-36 Bayonet is already ingame and I don't think its worth to replace it
Its appropriate for Tier 3 in my opinion



Its the end of my New Bayonet Tech Tree Explanation
Although I didn't mention about Bayonet Attachment System, I'll talk about that Topic later at 'Project Rifles' chapter as well as Scopes
Thank U all for reading my Thread, hope U all safe from current Pandemic Crisis

- logrouacidskor
 

Edited

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Junell    128

IMO melee weapons should be grouped into "fast stabber", "slow stabber", "one handed whacker", "two handed slasher", etc. All small knives should have identical stats, and the same for all one handed hammers/clubs/beer bottles... 

 

That way melee weapons could act as the default competition and event prize.

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Akinaba    462

Kinda feel good on anythiing that will bring more historical accuracy to the game so YAY, why not?

 

Though gameplay wise I can't see how we could make difference between 5 tier of close combat weapons (3kinves +2stabbers (showel and a bat)).

And on the tier distribution I will spread weapons in the opposite order putting an older and longer bayonets at Tier1 and faster and shorter knives at tier3.

Edited

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