logrouacidskor 63 Report post Posted August 30, 2020 (edited) Before read this thread 1. This is purely my own proposal, not Reto's Official Project 2. No 'Bias' included, I'm the Player who plays all 3 Factions equally 3. I try best as I could to keep balance between 'Historical Accuracy' & 'Reality' & 'Game Balance' 4. Remember even if my proposal are accept and release to ingame by Reto, Its all up to Reto who set Detail Specification & Balanced of the Contents, not me 5. Please keep productive conversation on comment, I welcome productive discussion as well This thread is about 'Bayonet Tech Tree' & Issue of Current Bayonets Please check it out Project 'Close Combat' before read this Spoiler 1. Each faction's Bayonets are unbalanced As I told before on Project 'Close Combat' Current H&G's Bayonets are not balanced US has 1 Short Knife GE has 1 Long Knife SU has 1 Short, 1 Long Knife So as Reto filled the missing parts of LMG Tech Tree, I think its time to fill the missing gaps on Bayonets too This is the Tech Tree I consider of Spoiler Just like LMG, I think 3 Tier of Tech Tree on Bayonets will be appropriate for adjust balance & options that players can choose Plus, it would be great if there are some different characteristic between different Tier Bayonets This is my personal Idea of getting balance for each Tier Bayonets 1. Stabbing Speed : Tier 1 > Tier 2 > Tier 3 Tier 1 Bayonets are Lightest and Smallest Bayonets, so their Stabbing Speed is Fastest Stabbing Speed gets slower as Bayonets gets Longer, and Heavier 2. Range & Damage : Tier 3 > Tier 2 > Tier 1 Of course, as Bayonets gets Longer, the Range gets Longer As Blade gets Longer too, the Damage would more deadly because it would punch more deeply on flesh 3. Spawn Timer : Tier 3 > Tier 2 > Tier 1 Its the Weapon Tech Tree that has different specs, so the Spawn Timer must different for each Tier Bayonet Ex) Tier 3 Bayonets have Longest Range & Highest Damage, so they should get longer Spawn Timer than Tier 1 or 2 These 3 Concepts above would balanced between Different Tier Bayonets Plus, giving Different Specs to Different Tier makes players have options to choose which bayonets as their play style It would be like this Tier 1 Bayonets are Fast Stabbing, but Short Range & Low Damage Tier 2 Bayonets are Middle Ground of all Spec, Decent Stabbing Speed, Decent Range, Decent Damage Tier 2 Bayonets are Slow Stabbing, but Long Range, High Damage (Remember that setting Detail Specs are Reto's job, not mine) Now, I'll explain the Detail of each Bayonets on Tech Trees US Tier 1. 1219C2 Combat Knife -> M4 Bayonet Spoiler 1219C2 Combat Knife Blade Length : 7 inch (18 cm) Full Length : 11.8 inch (30.16 cm) Its already exist in game, and I found no evidence that the Size or Length is wrong compared to real one on H&G's 1219C2 Combat Knife No Problem on in game Size, but had Issue about Model itself Almost none of this 1219C2 Combat Knifes aren't used on US 'Army' at European Theater during WW2 The 1219C2 Bayonet so called 'KA-Bar' is for Marines & Navies on Pacific, even H&G's Combat Knife has 'USMC'(United States Marine Corp) Marking on its Blade I found no evidence that any of US Army Soldiers used 1219C2 Combat Knife on European Theater Spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_bayonet Spoiler M4 Bayonet Blade Length : 6.75 inch (17.1 cm) Full Length : 11.75 inch (29.8 cm) It can attached to M1 (Later Type), MA1 (Later Type), M2 Carbine The US Army on European Theater usually used 3 major types of knifes 1. M1 Bayonet for M1 Garand Rifle 2. M3 Fighting Knife (Trench Knife) 3. M4 Bayonet for Carbines M4 Bayonet is Modified version of M3 Fighting Knife to be Bayonet of Carbine family (usually M1 Carbine, later M2 Carbine) M4 Bayonet should must replaces current 1219C2 Bayonet, because its more Historically Accurate and make sense + Have possibility of attach M4 Bayonet on Carbine Families on H&G But I know Reto didn't want to remove what they already introduce in game, but I think they should change this (Hope Reto had enough time & resource of it) Its almost shortest US Army Bayonet used on WW2, so I put this on Tier 1 Tier 2. M1 Bayonet Spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1905_bayonet#M1_bayonet Spoiler M1 Bayonet Blade Length : 10 inch (25.4 cm) Full Length : 14 inch (35.6 cm) It can attached to M1903 Springfield Series Rifles, and M1 Garand Rifle The famous M1 Garand Rifle's Bayonet, The M1 Bayonet was designed on 1943 as shorter version of early M1905 Bayonet Its was originally M1905 Bayonet which was M1903 Springfield Rifle's Bayonet, so M1 Bayonet can attached to M1903 Springfield Rifle too, but usually that didn't happened a lot It was largest numbers of Bayonet that used on US Army during WW2, its literally 'Service Bayonet' that almost every Army Rifle Man was given I put M1 Bayonet on Tier 2 because it has Medium Length & Size Can't find more appropriate Model than this on Tier 2 Tier 3. M1905 Bayonet Spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1905_bayonet Spoiler M1905 Bayonet Blade Length : 16 inch (40.6 cm) Full Length : 20 inch (50.8 cm) It can attached to M1903 Springfield Series Rifles, and M1 Garand Rifle Just like Gewehr 98's Seitengewehr 98/05 Bayonet, The M905 Bayonet is WW1 Era Bayonet too Its originally designed for M1903 Springfield Rifle Series but it can possible to attached on M1 Garand Rifle too, and it was Official M1 Garand's Bayonet until 1943 when new M1 Bayonet was introduced The WW2 version of M1905 Bayonet was called M1924 by Collectors but that designation was never used officially on US Army I put this M1905 Bayonet as Tier 3 because its longer than Tier 2 M1 Bayonet There is also the M1917 Bayonet which is similar to M1905 Bayonet, but I choose M1905 rather than M1917 Bayonet M1917 Bayonet(17 inch Blade) is more longer than M1905 Bayonet so it might be more unbalanced compared to SU & GE's Tier 3 Bayonet (besides, M1905 is already longer than SU & GE's Tier 3) + almost every M1917 Bayonet that used on WW2 was 'Trench Gun' Shotgun version and none of them are for M1 Garand or M1903 Springfield Rifles GE Tier 1. Seitengewehr 42 Spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seitengewehr_42 Spoiler http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/98bayonets/sg42bayonet.htm Spoiler Seitengewehr 42 Blade Length : 7 inch (18 cm) Full Length : 12 inch (30 cm) It can attached to G41, Kar98k, MKb 42(H) Seitengewehr 42 is latest model of German Army Bayonet, designed at 1942 but produced small numbers before WW2 ends No more new model of Bayonets has designed or produced after Seitengewehr 42 Its designed as Multi-Purpose Utility Knife (as you can see second picture), also can used as Bayonet of Kar98k and other Weapons Its not famous, nor produced large amounts but I put this as Tier 1 Bayonet because its most appropriate model of Tier 1 I found other Short Length Bayonets too, but this one was 'Official Army Bayonet' so I think its more worth it Tier 2. M1884/98 III Bayonet Spoiler http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/98bayonets/98bayonets3.htm Spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k#Accessories Spoiler M1884/98 III Bayonet Blade Length : 10 inch (25.4 cm) Full Length : 15.25 inch (38.7 cm) It can attached to G41, Kar98k, MKb 42(H) (G43 and StG 44 can't attach Bayonet because lack of Bayonet Lug) M1884/98 III Bayonet, known as 'Seitengewehr 84/98 III' is German Bayonet of Late WW1 ~ WW2 Era German Army It replaced previous Seitengewehr 98/05 and became Standard german army rifle Bayonet Its designed as Kar98k Rifle's Bayonet but can attach to G41 Rifle and MKb 42(H) too Just like US Tier 2 M1 Bayonet, this Bayonet has 10 inchs of Blade so I put this Model as Tier 2 + Its Standard Issue Army Rifle Bayonet on WW2 PS. lot of people misunderstand that MP34's Bayonet is this model too, but it doesn't MP34 Bayonet is Completely Different Model Tier 3. Seitengewehr 98/05 Spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_98#Accessories Spoiler http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/98bayonets/98bayonets2.htm Spoiler http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/HTNL DOCUMNETS/German_98_05_ variations.htm Spoiler Seitengewehr 98/05 Blade Length : 14.6 inch (37 cm) Full Length : 19.75 inch (50 cm) It can attached to Kar98k Just like US M1905 Bayonet, Seitengewehr 98/05 was developed during WW1 as Bayonet of Gewehr 98 which was Standard Rifle of that Era, but can attach to Kar98k too Spoiler Kar98k with Seitengewehr 98/05 Original version was Seitengewehr 98 but it was too long and that leads to shorter version Seitengewehr 98/05 Its known as 'Butcher Blade' by the Allies during WW1 due to its distinctive shape (The Blade Surface gets wider like machete) Early version has Teeth on top of the blade and that version was called 'Saw-back' but soon became very unpopular on both sides of the frontline. The French and British soldier killed the German soldiers on the spot if not tortured when they captured Germans carrying such bayonets. For this reason German order was issued in 1917, that all 'Saw-back' bayonets have their teeth removed. (see the picture below) Spoiler (Saw-Back version beneath) As I said on Tier 2 GE Bayonet, just before WW1 Ended, The 'M1884/98 III Bayonet' was introduced to replace longer & inefficient Seitengewehr 98/05 and used as Standard Bayonet during WW2 But, Seitengewehr 98/05 still used during WW2 as well I put this Model as Tier 3 because its one of the Longest Bayonet that was actually used during WW2 by German Army, and can attached to Kar98k too Seitengewehr 98/05 is already in game, as Seitengewehr 98 H&G Official Wiki approves its Seitengewehr 98/05 Spoiler https://heroesandgenerals.gamepedia.com/Seitengewehr_98#History Spoiler But, I spot something wield Is that really Seitengewehr 98/05? First of all, Its not longer enough AVS Bayonet is 13 inch Blade while Seitengewehr 98/05 has 14.6 inch Blade But in H&G, Seitengewehr 98 isn't longer than AVS Bayonet at all + H&G Official Wiki said AVS Bayonet is longest Bayonet in game And second, It doesn't look like Seitengewehr 98/05 at all So I find out what happened myself , The result was amazing Spoiler 1. I compared AVS-36 Rifle & Bayonet with Real AVS & Bayonet I found out H&G's both AVS Rifle and Bayonet are almost same size as Real One Then, I compared to H&G's AVS Bayonet to H&G's Seitengewehr 98/05 It turns out that H&G's Seitengewehr 98/05 has about 3.6 inch Shorter Blade, Total Length was 1.7 inch Shorter than Real Seitengewehr 98/05 Spoiler 2. After that, I compared H&G's Seitengewehr 98/05 to Real Seitengewehr 98/05 And it turns out that H&G's Model has many difference compared to Real Model Almost looks completely different Model Spoiler 3. Yep, case solve H&G's Seitengewehr 98/05 isn't Seitengewehr 98/05 at all Its M1884/98 III Bayonet, known as S84/98 III or Seitengewehr 84/98 III which I suggested to Tier 2 Bayonet Tech Tree So, I thinks Reto should change the name of current Seitengewehr 98/05 to M1884/98 III Bayonet SU Tier 1. NR-40 'Scout Knife' Spoiler https://heroesandgenerals.gamepedia.com/NR-40 Spoiler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NR-40 Spoiler https://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-knives/russian-nr-40-scout-knife/ Spoiler NR-40 'Scout Knife' Blade Length : 6.08 inch (15.2 cm) Full Length : 10.6 inch (27 cm) Its Fighting Knife, not a Bayonet so it can't attach to any weapon The Winter War revealed a number of deficiencies in Soviet weaponry, among other issues, the Soviet infantry lacked a good combat knife. As a result, in 1940, the Soviet Army adopted the NR-40 know as the 'Scout's Knife' Its just a small but popular and mass-produced Fighting Knife I put his as Tier 1 because its Size & Length are appropriate to its Tier Tier 2. SVT-40 Bayonet Spoiler https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C225386 Spoiler SVT-40 Bayonet Blade Length : 9.5 inch (24.2 cm) Full Length : 14 inch (35.6 cm) It can attach to SVT-38, SVT-40, AVT-40 and SKT-40 Its the SVT Rifle series's Bayonet, especially for SVT-40, this Bayonet is know as M1940 Bayonet too Its shorter version of previous SVT-38's Bayonet, the M1938 Bayonet It has 9.5 inch blade, almost 10 inch just like other Faction's Tier 2 Bayonet so I put this as Tier 2 Tier 3. AVS-36 Bayonet Spoiler https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-soviet-pre-wwii-1936-avs-36-rifle-first-model-bayonet-rare?variant=26156933445 Spoiler https://heroesandgenerals.gamepedia.com/AVS-36_Bayonet Spoiler AVS-36 Bayonet Blade Length : 13 inch (33 cm) Full Length : 17.7 inch (45 cm) It can attach to AVS-36 Only AVS-36 Bayonet, known as M1936 Bayonet is designed as AVS-36 Rifle Only Bayonet Its shorter than other Tier 3 Bayonets like M1905 Bayonet or Seitengewehr 98/05, but its still worth of Tier 3 There is other option, the SVT-38's Bayonet 'M1938 Bayonet' and its about 1~3 inch longer than AVS-36 Bayonet But AVS-36 Bayonet is already ingame and I don't think its worth to replace it Its appropriate for Tier 3 in my opinion Its the end of my New Bayonet Tech Tree Explanation Although I didn't mention about Bayonet Attachment System, I'll talk about that Topic later at 'Project Rifles' chapter as well as Scopes Thank U all for reading my Thread, hope U all safe from current Pandemic Crisis - logrouacidskor Edited August 30, 2020 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Junell 128 Report post Posted September 1, 2020 IMO melee weapons should be grouped into "fast stabber", "slow stabber", "one handed whacker", "two handed slasher", etc. All small knives should have identical stats, and the same for all one handed hammers/clubs/beer bottles... That way melee weapons could act as the default competition and event prize. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinaba 462 Report post Posted September 17, 2020 (edited) Kinda feel good on anythiing that will bring more historical accuracy to the game so YAY, why not? Though gameplay wise I can't see how we could make difference between 5 tier of close combat weapons (3kinves +2stabbers (showel and a bat)). And on the tier distribution I will spread weapons in the opposite order putting an older and longer bayonets at Tier1 and faster and shorter knives at tier3. Edited September 17, 2020 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PrivateMarkosL 390 Report post Posted September 30, 2020 yes 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
