monkeeofninja

Spawn locations, the hidden cause of many map problems

Recommended Posts

First of all, I want to say, that this is not the sole issue I have with maps. However, the issue I want to cover is the root cause of many of the issues with maps, (all of them) and is often overlooked for more obvious issues.

 

Terrain in the maps is not the main cause of the problems we have. Instead, the spawn points are what causes most of the issues we have in terms of balance. This cannot be understated. Many of the maps and lines would be much more playable if there were more thought placed into the locations of player spawns. This is an issue that has existed since the map overhauls, which made the terrain much better overall, but caused many problems due to the placement of spawns.

 

Let’s look at a few things that often cause issues, using Town’s E/D line as an example, as it showcases all of the issues.

 

Lines of movement.

First of all, the majority of players will move in basically a straight line from their spawn, to the nearest enemy point, or to reinforce their own point. This basically means that there can be straight lines drawn from a spawn to the nearest enemy cap, and most players will be near that line.

 

Let’s take Town D3/D2 as an example.

 

VE0F4qL.jpg

Here you can see that these lines never cross. Of course, there are other areas where this issue is worse, but this will do to illustrate the problem. Both teams will basically never meet each other outside their respective cap zones when this happens, leading to the gameplay feeling stale, and allowing jeep rushes to be extremely effective. Also, in the case for defenders, they have to take wildly differing routes for defense and offense, leading to forces being split and little ability to be able to quickly switch from attacking to defending. Often, these zones will suddenly fall, or lead to the situation where both teams are capping each other’s zones and it becomes a matter of who can pile in to the caps the fastest.

 

Ideally, there should be a relatively straight line that goes from spawn, the friendly point, and then the enemy point. Take the next two points, D3 and D4 for example. Both teams, if they are pushing will run into each other on the way to each respective cap. They will also by the way the spawns are placed, be able to reinforce their own zones should they come under attack.

Fa25Ual.jpg

The latter is much more fun and dynamic to play, with more combat going on, and actually seeing enemies outside the cap zones often.

 

Basically, the big issue here, is that the routes of both teams rarely meet, and so there is no feeling of pushing back the enemy. More spawn points should be closer to the lines of attack that are drawn on the map. Having a non-objective point halfway between caps to fight over is a lot of fun too, take for example the ruined building on Town’s A line (A3-A4) or the rock on Factory’s C line (C2-C3).

 

Stupid placement of spawns

Often, it feels like there is no thought placed on where spawns are placed. There can be times when there is absolutely no cover at all once you leave the spawn, or the distances are wildly varying for attackers and defenders.

 

For the first point, I think D2-D3 spawn on Town perfectly illustrates this. It is on a hill, with absolutely no way to leave the spawn with any form of cover or concealment (except if you want to attack E line lol). Having a faster, and not protected route, and a slower but protected route is the ideal situation, but having no cover whatsoever is criminal, and makes it hilariously easy to camp. This issue exists in multiple places, and there are many. Some of the worst (but not limited to) Town: A1, A1-A2, A4-O2, B1-B2 (for defending B2), C1-C2, D1, D2-D3, E1, E2-E3. Factory: A1-A2. I could easily list more, but that’s not the point.

For the second point, Town’s A3 capture point really drives it home for me. As attackers, if you cannot capture it in the first fight, your chances of winning drop off a cliff. A1-A2 spawn is much too far away to properly be able to defend A2, let alone attack A3, while the defenders have a spawn that is barely 100m away from A3. It’s basically impossible to cap A3 if defenders are paying attention as they can reinforce so much faster.

CulicyO.jpg

Why is the next spawn better for attacking A2?

 

Inter-line and Intra-line interference by spawns that cannot be disabled.

Another problem is that attacks can come from two different directions, sometimes without even considering being flanked from another line.

The worst example of this is probably Factory’s very own (and very broken) D line. For some reason, it was deemed to be a smart decision to fold D line back on itself, and to allow the wall to be jumped at D4-O2 spawn. For some reason, that spawn is actually closer  to D2 than the intended spawn is. There is basically no reason to ever not spawn there, as it is the best spawn for defending any point on the line. It also basically gives the defence a free, and easy flank route for literally every point on the line, making sure attackers have no reasonable way to approach D3.

F7IoGis.png

This issue manifests itself in many other maps and spawn zones too, namely when the spawns are on opposite sides, relative to the line drawn between the caps. (Town’s A line again) Disabling the flanking spawn is not possible, and it basically gives whichever team holds it a massive advantage. A flank route should be longer than the straight route, not vice versa. Alternative routes should always exist, but they should be balanced by the fact that they take longer to use. The best spawn for any situation, should also be the one that is deactivated, should you fail to hold a point. You should never have a point that is equally viable elsewhere.

 

Additionally, one side of the cap should always be free from any type of spawn point, to allow for flanking of the cap. Town’s A3 has that as a big issue. Due to the spawn placement, you cannot flank on either side of the cap, as the defenders always have a spawn in the wooded areas on both sides.

 

Now for interference between lines. The worst culprit is Town’s D/E line. Given that the defenders have D line, E line is practically impossible to take. Take the example below, where defenders hold E3. Here, the D line spawn is ACTUALLY CLOSER THAN THE E LINE SPAWN AND OFFERS COVER. Furthermore, it CANNOT BE DISABLED. Meaning, that E2 is always under immediate threat from enemy attack, from a completely different direction, and from a source that cannot be countered. I have gone 60-10 K/D defending E2 as attackers, and still been ultimately overwhelmed. This should not happen. Ever.

 

 

jKFRtg5.jpg

Having adjacent lines SHOULD be an advantage, but those spawn should still be considerably further than the spawns on the line itself. Another bad example is Town’s B line. How this still exists is beyond me.

 

Overall, the terrain on most maps could do with a little more hard cover and points of interest outside the capture zones, as most maps feel a little empty. However the main issue plaguing most of the maps is the location of spawn zones. The old system of spawning in the caps, however flawed that was, at least lead to predictable and logical paths of movement, relative to the UI elements presented. I’m not suggesting a return to the old system, but much more thought needs to go into the locations of the spawn zones on all of the maps, the best one being Forward Airfield. That map was designed post-spawn system update, and it is really noticeable, with much of the elements I mentioned existing, and mostly decent spawn locations and little interference from other lines.

 

I have left out specific suggestions, since that’s not something I can do on my own. General pointers to making all maps better and more fun however some changes in direction for spawn zones:

 

1.       Bringing spawn zones closer to the lines drawn between the caps

2.       Ensuring there is a safe way out of the spawn points, although these should take longer than rushing out in the open

3.       The best spawn for any point is the one that is disabled next.

4.       The distances for both teams are roughly equal

5.       Later spawns don’t allow for easy flanks, or block decent flanking/support positions from the other team

 

For terrain in general, excluding the caps:

1.       More flank routes, especially around rivers.

2.       More hardpoints and supporting areas to fight over, outside the cap zones. A few ruins, trenches, pillboxes and houses would go a long way in the empty fields and near tough capture zones. These should be able to support the capture zones (sniping etc) and also be an additional bulwark to slow enemies if held. Good examples are the ruin between A4 and A3 on town, and the house between E2 and E3 on Mountain Town.

 

On a somewhat related note, the cave rock needs to make a comeback. (Veterans, you know what I mean)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Akinaba    462

I really liked your thoughts posted here. But on top of that I would really like to see what would be your exact suggestions on all your examples to rearange spawn and capturepoints to provide more inter and intra line intersections for both defenders and attackers?

 

Would you be able to draw? It would be really interesting. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Krzysiek5657    977

i would be even more drastic - current spawn locations favour defenders baddly. 

What if spawn locations would favor attackers? 

Just what i think - make alt spawns way closer to next point (from attacker perspective) instead equal 

 

As a picture E water pass

What happens if attackers passed water and captured E4? They have still pass water over and over again to at least neutralize O point.

What is suggestion? 

 

Make alt spawn for E4  near small barn (where truck is  - few meters away deep in bush )

It would make way easier for attacker to push further O point

 

What is consequence of this for defenders? 

Extremly difficult to cap back E4 (due close enemy spawn )

Even if they cap E4, then E3 - they will still have to pass water to push E2 (so spawn situation is changed on favor attackers) 

 

What would be main strategic for defenders? DO NOT let attackers even neutralize E4, otherwise this point is lost

Edited

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Akinaba said:

I really liked your thoughts posted here. But on top of that I would really like to see what would be your exact suggestions on all your examples to rearange spawn and capturepoints to provide more inter and intra line intersections for both defenders and attackers?

 

Would you be able to draw? It would be really interesting. :)

 

I would love to, but it will take time. This is more of general preliminary thoughts than anything else. I'm probably going to end up going over all maps (except forward airfield, that map is actually by far the best) and properly give each map its own post/reply. Town will probably be first. I want to keep terrain edits to a minimum, those are done to death and won't fix many of the issues. Probably only a few building/fortification additions for each line, nothing drastic. Many maps can probably be balanced better by tweaking spawn locations and spawn timers.

 

That being said, here's Town's D/E line in the meantime, as I've done most of the work here already.

qAOnVGY.jpg

D line, I want to add more focus on the forested area, so the spawns are moved down there. Reducing some of the bushes in there, and adding some large rocks for cover would also be nice. I also would like to see some extra houses outside the capture zones to act as fire support positions for attacking/defending the caps.

 

D1 spawn:

Move it down, and add some cover in the form of trees so it's not a campfest for snipers and LMGs.

D1-D2:

Move it to the other side of the road. Not a big change, but it should allow for easier flanking through the forest. Add a house on the other side of the road for fire support.

D2-D3:

Move it the F*** away from E line. Inside the forest should suffice. Maybe a few large rocks for extra cover.

D3-D4:

Same spot, clear sightlines for the house looking towards D4. Add a house on the opposite side

D4:

Add an overturned APC on the bridge. That should be just about enough cover. Forces defenders to push sometimes, and add an additional point to fight around. No going crazy with sandbags or anything like that.

D4-O1:

Same as before.

 

 

 

E line spawns are mostly unchanged, except for E1-E2. That spawn is actually closer to the E2-E3 spawn than the objective. Moving it to the other side of the road, and adding cover for it would help. A few extra fire positions for E3 and E4, with some cover should help add some interest outside the caps.

 

E1 spawn:

Same as before, maybe move it a little closer. Add some houses for cover along the road before the cap.

E1-E2:

Move it away from E2-E3 spawn. Add some houses for cover. Add a gap in the wall for jeeps to pass.

E2-E3:

The same as before. Add a ruined house near the road as an extra fire position. Extend the trees to meet the hedges on the far side.

E3-E4:

Move it closer to the river. Add THE CAVE ROCK on the island, so it can become a fire support position to assist in the cap.

E4:

Add a ladder so you can climb up from the water.

E4-O1:

Same spot, but seal the door to the house overlooking D4 from the spawn. It then becomes a position that is somewhat feasible to hold as attackers to help attack D4. The window is still open for nades so you still have to watch out.

 

NO large scale terrain edits, just moving the spawns around, and a few extra existing assets dropped in. CAVE ROCK makes a comeback!

 

Town A line is probably next!

Edited
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Akinaba    462

Okay now that's some nice suggestions with some analytics on top. I really liked it and whats more important It suggests some really neede changes in map play while still almost no alter the map itrself.

 

Pls keep going those ideas, they are at least intersting.

 

P.s. I believe that most asset additions to the spawnpoints are unlikely for reto however I allready can see how the spawnpoint altering can and will affect the interline and intra line gamplay in what seems like posititve way. So yay! I hope when (if) you'll do other three lines on this map we could at least show it to @Reto.RedBjarne for him to consider. Anyway keep going! )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's A line. The issue with the current iteration is that attackers have nowhere to go on the flanks, because the defenders have spawns that make both sides of A3 easily accessible. Taking A3 is a massive effort for attackers, especially with how far the spawn is.

 

I really struggled with the placement of A1-O2 spawn. These caps are really a little too close together to be able to properly place any spawns which is likely why such bad placement was necessary. I elected to remove it entirely, since it is basically only useful for spawning as a sniper or praying that you don't get mowed down while going full speed in a jeep. Adding some extra cover on the hill to protect people running to A4 would help defenders a little. Another solution may be having a spawn next to the church, This area may benefit with a bigger rework, but that's outside the scope of this.

 

I wanted attackers to mostly be able to flank through the forest on the far side of the road. They will have to cross open ground to attack the points though, so having the flank will not be a massive advantage.

 

JnG5GKg.jpg

 

A1:

Mostly the same as prior, connect the woods up to the small copse behind A1. Move foot spawns into the new trees there. Add a second truck spawn.

A1-A2:

I have no idea why it was so far away, especially since there are no truck or bike spawns. Move it next to the shack, and give a truck spawn. Alternatively, it could be placed in the woods across the road.

A2-A3:

Move it to the other side of the road, it was basically on the best path to A2 for attackers. It will be closer to A2, but this is compensated by the fact that A1-A2 spawn is also closer, so it will be harder to gain the cap from attackers.

A3:

Defenders have an overwhelming advantage in this cap. Moving the spawns to clear up the left side (attackers' perspective) should help a lot. Consider removing the ladder to the attic, or stacking the crates higher (w/ladder) so attackers can enter more easily.

A3-A4:

This spawn is fine, maybe making the area slightly smaller (removing some of the spawns closer to A3) might be good. Artillery holes may be added near the ruin to explain what happened to it, and add some additional cover from the church.

A4-O2:

There is no sound place to place this spawn. Perhaps a foot only spawn somewhere may work. I decided upon removing it, but adding cover to compensate. A trench along the open ridge, and a pillbox next to the AA gun should provide a little cover for defenders running to A4 from O2 spawn. Replacing the shack with a house will help further with this objective.

O2:

This cap is pretty good. Perhaps adding some scaffolding to reach the roof (similar to Forward Airfield)  would help with some of the difficulty re-enforcing the cap point. A ladder inside leading upstairs would also be nice as right now this cap acts as two separate ones. This is probably needed to compensate for the fact that the shack next to the AA gun is replaced with a house, meaning that the far door entrance is harder to use if said house is taken by enemies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Akinaba    462

A2-A3 is doubtfull since it will cause attackers to spawncamp dfenders at church

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Akinaba    462
On 9/11/2020 at 3:24 AM, RadicalEdward2 said:

I like these mock-ups 🙂

me too! ) at least a there is something to think about

 

Btw. Just looked at d/e line mockups and kinda have feeling that we (players) got some mutual points on where some assets should go:

- I see like the stone dridgw tends to  ask for have more cover and hard travel "snakelike" path for a vehicle.

- I see the mutual feel of lack cover for the attacker side of the stone bridge

- I see request of enlarged tree patch on the attacker (spawn) side of the D1

 

and

- I see reques for taking a look at A line once again

 

Edited

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RadicalEdward2    1,889

When looking at E line, I would say the most major and glaring problem is the lack of cover between E2 and E3 because there's literally nothing there and medkit location there is in no mans land.

Additionally, its so open that defenders just camp next to E3 while attackers spawn and exit the patch of trees between E2 and E3 (part of why I took another small break from the game lol).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites