Reto.Hades

Prototype test: Weapon balance

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Reto.Hades    3,433

We have uploaded a new build to the prototype server.
In this build, we are taking a look at weapon balance!

 

Starting with this patch, we wish to have balancing patches more often.
That means that with the current patch, we are not aiming for perfect balance.

 

The changes in this build are significant and will be quite noticeable. We understand that some of the changes will be controversial and not well liked. Certain weapons will start performing less than they currently do. This is in many ways our intention, as we believe that several weapons perform better than they should. It's never fun that your favorite weapon becomes weaker, so we fully get that this creates some negative emotions. However, we hope that you are willing to try it out and give it a fair chance.

 

Because we wish to start doing such patches more often, we have decided to keep it on the changes that we have currently made. We had some other ideas we we were thinking about as well, But we feel it's best to first take a look at the effects of these changes before making more.

 

We are looking for feedback, mostly to see if some weapons are suddenly really weak and unusable, of that the opposite is true, and some weapons have become (more) overpowered. An important thing to note, is that it's important to check out several weapons. As nerfing weapon X automatically means that Y becomes more viable. Furthermore, since many weapons have had reductions in performance. A weapon may perform less on itself, but still gets the same chances against it's counterparts.

 

You can download the prototype here: 
<http://prototype.heroesandgenerals.com/>

 


You can find the following changes on prototype:

  •  Aimpenaltycontractionpersec significantly reduced on all weapons
    • It takes longer for a gun to go back to 'standard sway'
  • Aimpenaltyperbullet reduced for all weapons
    • Sway increases less per bullet fired

 

The combination of these two mean that sway will build up slower, but will take effect longer

This also means that the more bullets you fire, the further it builds up, increasing the value of firing in bursts becomes greater

 

 

 

  • Aimpenaltyturn increased for some guns (especially MG13, Johnson, FG42, PPD40)
    • When you turn your character around, you will get an increased sway. Above weapons had similar aimpenaltyturn to SMG's before
  • Swayspeed increased for some guns (especially MG13, Johnson, FG42)
    • Sway further increased while moving
  • Swayfatigue increased on all weapons
    • Sway further increased when having low stamina
  • Recoiltime (ROF) reduced on
    • STG44 from 500 to 476 (5%)
    • AVS36 from 600 to 545 (9%)
    • M2 Carbine from 667 to 577 (13%)
    • MG13 from 600 to 550 (8%)
    • Johnson from 600 to 577 (4%)
  • recoiltime (ROF) increased on
    • BAR from 480 to 522 (9%)
    • MG34 from 550 to 600 (9%)
  • Magazine capacity on M1 Carbine and M1A1 Carbine decreased to 15 rounds. (model not updated) Magazine amount increased to 10.
  • Base sway decreased on:
    • PPD-40
    • PPSh-41
  • **Various other tweaks**

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All lmgs I've tried have trash accuracy and require burst fire, I kind of like it.

Looks like smgs are only accurate automatic weapons now?

m1/m2 got max rof nerf but even stock is spastic to shoot in ads, not sure if it has any advantage over tommy in this state.

No tweaks to bar/johnny vs mg13 reload time?

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guncolony.com    527

Changelogs feedback:

 

Quote

Aimpenaltyturn increased for some guns (especially MG13, Johnson, FG42, PPD40)

Imagine nerfing the PPD and Johnson. What a joke

Currently Johnson is just a FG42 with more sway, more spread, and slower reload. This is especially true now that the Johnson gets a RPM nerf(?????) Maybe let the Johnson have less nerf to turning sway to finally give it an advantage over FG42??

 

Similarly the turning sway was the only advantage the PPD has over the PPSh. Grease Gun has more damage than Thompson, MP34 has more range than MP40, but with this nerf the PPD will be 100% strictly worse than the PPSh. I don't understand this nerf.

 

Quote

Swayspeed increased for some guns (especially MG13, Johnson, FG42)

In my opinion this is a good nerf, but Johnson should get a small sway reduction at idle. After this nerf the Johnson just has worse sway than the AVS both when standing still and moving, so the idle sway should be reduced  to make the values closer in both situations.

 

Quote

Swayfatigue increased on all weapons

Why? For once you finally make a positive change on the game and you're just gonna ruin it by making people unable to shoot after sprinting. The current values are fine. If you are using SA rifles, ARs and LMGs the sway is already really high and disorienting. With SMGs and Pistols the sway is still noticeable but not very detrimental (as intended). Marathon Man already serves a good purpose right now, I use it on one of my LMG characters to make it more accurate after sprinting. The stamina sway should NOT be made worse than it is now.

 

Quote
  •  Base sway decreased on:
    • PPD-40
    • PPSh-41

Don't think that was a problem tbh, but I guess i'll take it and abuse it to make a hipfire monster ppsh once the patch drops.

 

Quote

Recoiltime (ROF) reduced on

  • STG44 from 500 to 476 (5%)
  • AVS36 from 600 to 545 (9%)
  • M2 Carbine from 667 to 577 (13%)
  • MG13 from 600 to 550 (8%)
  • Johnson from 600 to 577 (4%)

Where did the damage and aim down sights speed changes go?

Edit: Turns out AVS ranged damage wasn't completely destroyed by this patch, I'll take it.

 

Quote

Furthermore, since many weapons have had reductions in performance. A weapon may perform less on itself, but still gets the same chances against it's counterparts.

But less chances against recons/SA rifles. Honestly I think this is good, since recon needed a buff anyway, and SA rifles recently got a nerf in the form of the "sway blending" in the sprint patch where you can't remove your sway instantly when you stop moving anymore, making hipfiring with SAs much less accurate.

 

Quote

Magazine capacity on M1 Carbine and M1A1 Carbine decreased to 15 rounds. (model not updated) Magazine amount increased to 10.

IMO the M1 carbine should stay at 30 rounds but M1A1 should be reduced to 15

 

Questions:

 

- For aimpenaltyperbullet & aimpenaltycontractionpersec, were they decreased the same percentage? Or did the contraction get reduced more than the expansion per shot, making it harder to make a weapon build where the sway resets completely between each shot?

2 hours ago, b.j.blazkovitch said:

All lmgs I've tried have trash accuracy and require burst fire, I kind of like it.

Looks like smgs are only accurate automatic weapons now?

m1/m2 got max rof nerf but even stock is spastic to shoot in ads, not sure if it has any advantage over tommy in this state.

No tweaks to bar/johnny vs mg13 reload time?

Sounds like my concerns above are confirmed. It is now harder to make a weapon that does not gain sway between shots. I bet everyone's gonna start running Tight Grip and Dead Eye on everything now, and I don't like where the gunplay is going.

Edited

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guncolony.com    527

The sway now works like bf4 spread, you have to stop shooting to let the sway recover. Microbursting will be key to shooting accurately. Holding down trigger no longer works.

^^Don't believe me? Just keep holding down your mouse after your gun is empty, look at how slow sway recovers until you release the mouse.

 

This also means that modding your weapon at high rpm then shooting slowly manually is better than modding your weapon at low rpm then holding down the trigger, even if you are actually shooting at the same rate in both cases. Using a mouse macro to fire at 720RPM with a trigger + spring PPSH is more accurate than holding down the trigger on a heavy spring PPSH (which is less than 600 RPM), which is just broken. Marksman trigger is still not worth it due to it decreasing the sway recovery speed and increasing ADS sway per shot in the first place.

 

Overall impression:

AVS: somehow handles better than before in both ADS and hipfire. Microbursting is viable in ADS to further increase accuracy, not so much in hipfire since the recovery rate is so slow. Overall despite the medium sized RPM nerf, the AVS is still very powerful. You also now have the option of modding for max RPM (around 630 now) and then manually tap fire around 500-550 rpm to avoid the firing sway altogether, same for STG

 

Maxim MT: ADS is nerfed to the point of being near unusable unless you microburst or run tight grip. Hipfire is just as bad as before.

 

SMGs: Both hipfire and ADS are nerfed and require microbursting, so SMGs are even worse than before. At this rate just make the smgs 5 equipment points already...

 

PPSH: BIG NERF WHY. Trying to shoot without microbursting is just ptsd simulator. Again it's better to mod high rpm and manually shoot slower . Accuracy bullet helps limit the cone expansion a lot

 

Johnson: BIG NERF. It becomes super inaccurate while moving, shoots slower than before, tight grip no longer completely cures the ptsd, so it is overall a joke for a tier 3 MG.

 

Pistol: Doesn't feel any different to me. P38 still op af and the rest of the pistols are barely viable. The new "spread doesn't recover between shots" doesn't seem to apply to pistols, so you can spam them just as well as before.

 

SA rifles: if you spam hipfire them at max RPM, they will now build up some significant spread, but any slower than max RPM and you are golden. Basically the rule of modding your RPM to max and shoot slower manually still applies. ADS is no different from before. Since the higher the RPM the better the hipfire accuracy at equal RPM, SVT now has even more advantage in hipfire compared to G43 and Garand

 

M1 Carbine/M1A1: nerfed to death, avoid at all costs

 

Conclusion: AVS/STG meta one hundred percent. Even US will have to start spamming captured AVS/STG to win. Always mod your RPM as high as possible if you want to win. Micro bursting gives an advantage, so does using mouse macros to click at a consistent rate slightly below the max weapon RPM. Tight Grip will be essential for a lot of weapons so I expect to see less heavy set moving forward.

 

Quote
  •  Aimpenaltycontractionpersec significantly reduced on all weapons
    • It takes longer for a gun to go back to 'standard sway'
  • Aimpenaltyperbullet reduced for all weapons
    • Sway increases less per bullet fired

 

Reto, just don't implement the above two changes if you don't want AVS/STG users, micro bursting tryhards and script kiddies to dominate the game.

Edited

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Reto.Hades    3,433

Regarding the PPD-40, it has actually been buffed and not nerfed.

The PPD-40 had the highest standard sway of all smg weapons, but the lowest penalty for moving with the weapon.

 

We have now reduced the standard closer to other SMG's, but to make sure it doesn't suddenly become the best smg in the game, we balanced this out by increasing the penalty for moving.

 

Based on feedback form here and the discord, I think that the different statistics we have changed in terms of sway have a too large impact on the actual sway it results in ingame.

They seem to strengthen one another exponentially.

 

It is intended that the assault rifles and light machineguns become less strong in cqc situations. but it seems the current changes have a too large impact on the weapons on the ranges they should be good on.

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1 hour ago, Reto.Hades said:

It is intended that the assault rifles and light machineguns become less strong in cqc situations.

And what is desired use for m1/m2 with this new balance?

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Sahuco    9

Tried the m2 carbine,I was hoping something controllable finaly with the reduction of rof as the stg or avs but still awfull.

Shooting machinguns now is almost imposible

SMGs still ok

IMO bad update

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Sahuco    9

More things

For example in the m2 carbine you said more damage per shot,thats doesnt have implemented yet?Beacause I saw the same,less than 20 per shot..

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guncolony.com    527
9 hours ago, Reto.Hades said:

Regarding the PPD-40, it has actually been buffed and not nerfed.

The PPD-40 had the highest standard sway of all smg weapons, but the lowest penalty for moving with the weapon.

 

We have now reduced the standard closer to other SMG's, but to make sure it doesn't suddenly become the best smg in the game, we balanced this out by increasing the penalty for moving.

Have you tried how bad the hipfire accuracy gets after like 3 bullets? Previously the crosshair didn't really grow at all because of how slow the PPD shoots, but now it keeps growing to very large sizes. Some other SMGs have this to a lesser extent, especially with ammo mods, but with PPD/PPSH you spray a lot of bullets with the least damage per bullet and so they are impacted the most.

 

Also part of the PPD40 nerf I talked about is the turning accuracy nerf, like I said it was the only advantage over the PPSH. The other factions' T1 SMGs have that one desirable quality that is better than the T2, but there won't be one with the PPD40 if you nerf the turning accuracy.

 

Quote

Based on feedback form here and the discord, I think that the different statistics we have changed in terms of sway have a too large impact on the actual sway it results in ingame.

They seem to strengthen one another exponentially.

 

It is intended that the assault rifles and light machineguns become less strong in cqc situations. but it seems the current changes have a too large impact on the weapons on the ranges they should be good on.

 

Well yeah, instead of nerfing the ADS speed of LMGs which would decrease the CQC ability, you nerfed the accuracy while aiming + spraying which nerfs the midrange and makes them useful only in CQC. Unless you bipod ofc, but why don't you just use a heavier MG if you are using the bipod?

 

Maybe consider decreasing cone fire/spread for the LMGs to make them better at mid range? Right now they are a lot less precise than HMGs like M1919 and MT, and now that their movement sway is nerfed every LMG handles like the BAR now, and I honestly don't see any reason why the LMGs should still be used.

 

Quote
  •  Aimpenaltycontractionpersec significantly reduced on all weapons
    • It takes longer for a gun to go back to 'standard sway'
  • Aimpenaltyperbullet reduced for all weapons
    • Sway increases less per bullet fired

 

Like I said, revert these (they weren't asked for and weren't talked about in the original weapon balance thread), and give M1 and M1A1 more damage and accuracy now that they have 15 round mags, and then the changelog is good enough. I don't care about whether MG13 is still a laser or not, it shoots slower now and moving seriously messes up the accuracy instead of having next to no impact at all, which is enough nerf in my eyes.

Edited

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6 minutes ago, RussianSniper01 said:

really hope you dont plant on adding this crap, german guns are just more point and click now.

I tried only mg13 and it's same trash as bar/johnny now so for me it's an improvement 😜

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Juggernaut9631    811
1 hour ago, b.j.blazkovitch said:

I tried only mg13 and it's same trash as bar/johnny now so for me it's an improvement 😜

git gud mg13 is fine

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On 4/15/2020 at 1:16 PM, Reto.Hades said:

We have uploaded a new build to the prototype server.
In this build, we are taking a look at weapon balance!

 

Starting with this patch, we wish to have balancing patches more often.
That means that with the current patch, we are not aiming for perfect balance.

 

The changes in this build are significant and will be quite noticeable. We understand that some of the changes will be controversial and not well liked. Certain weapons will start performing less than they currently do. This is in many ways our intention, as we believe that several weapons perform better than they should. It's never fun that your favorite weapon becomes weaker, so we fully get that this creates some negative emotions. However, we hope that you are willing to try it out and give it a fair chance.

 

Because we wish to start doing such patches more often, we have decided to keep it on the changes that we have currently made. We had some other ideas we we were thinking about as well, But we feel it's best to first take a look at the effects of these changes before making more.

 

We are looking for feedback, mostly to see if some weapons are suddenly really weak and unusable, of that the opposite is true, and some weapons have become (more) overpowered. An important thing to note, is that it's important to check out several weapons. As nerfing weapon X automatically means that Y becomes more viable. Furthermore, since many weapons have had reductions in performance. A weapon may perform less on itself, but still gets the same chances against it's counterparts.

 

You can download the prototype here: 
<http://prototype.heroesandgenerals.com/>

 


You can find the following changes on prototype:

  •  Aimpenaltycontractionpersec significantly reduced on all weapons
    • It takes longer for a gun to go back to 'standard sway'
  • Aimpenaltyperbullet reduced for all weapons
    • Sway increases less per bullet fired

 

The combination of these two mean that sway will build up slower, but will take effect longer

This also means that the more bullets you fire, the further it builds up, increasing the value of firing in bursts becomes greater

 

 

 

  • Aimpenaltyturn increased for some guns (especially MG13, Johnson, FG42, PPD40)
    • When you turn your character around, you will get an increased sway. Above weapons had similar aimpenaltyturn to SMG's before
  • Swayspeed increased for some guns (especially MG13, Johnson, FG42)
    • Sway further increased while moving
  • Swayfatigue increased on all weapons
    • Sway further increased when having low stamina
  • Recoiltime (ROF) reduced on
    • STG44 from 500 to 476 (5%)
    • AVS36 from 600 to 545 (9%)
    • M2 Carbine from 667 to 577 (13%)
    • MG13 from 600 to 550 (8%)
    • Johnson from 600 to 577 (4%)
  • recoiltime (ROF) increased on
    • BAR from 480 to 522 (9%)
    • MG34 from 550 to 600 (9%)
  • Magazine capacity on M1 Carbine and M1A1 Carbine decreased to 15 rounds. (model not updated) Magazine amount increased to 10.
  • Base sway decreased on:
    • PPD-40
    • PPSh-41
  • **Various other tweaks**

Give the AVS 40 damage like you originally said. In the very first balance post you made

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mambooman    190
On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2020 at 9:51 AM, Juggernaut9631 said:

dont be reta*ded and dont implemt this shite, leave guns be and rework m2 it isnt so hard

 

Like he said.  The guns are in the best position that they have been in a long, long time.  The ONLY gun that needs work is the M2.  Leave the rest alone.  Seriously.  Work on something that really needs it like the SOUND.  Tired of being ran over by silent civ trucks, blown up by nades that don't make sounds, and the ninjas who you cant hear walking.

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geschlittert    1,789
31 minutes ago, mambooman said:

Like he said.  The guns are in the best position that they have been in a long, long time.  The ONLY gun that needs work is the M2.  Leave the rest alone.  Seriously.  Work on something that really needs it like the SOUND.  Tired of being ran over by silent civ trucks, blown up by nades that don't make sounds, and the ninjas who you cant hear walking.

Well, some buff to t1 smgs, 30 dmg for thompson and pps, and more extra ammo for smgs would also be nice ^^

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Juggernaut9631    811

@Reto have you maybe considered that the guns are overperforming bcus 99% of your playerbase is lobotomized apes and that 1% can go 70/4 with closed eyes? you already ruined supply crates bcus players are too stupid now you will ruin all guns?

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/DifferentGleamingWalletCeilingCat

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AdrianVictus    950

You serious @Reto.Hades ??? Almost EVERYONE here on the forum told you that its a COMPLETE TRASH IDEA ! Why don't you listen the community for once and stop adding some restarted features? You won't balance anything this way, hell no ! 

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Ivanqff    625
38 minutes ago, AdrianVictus said:

You serious @Reto.Hades ??? Almost EVERYONE here on the forum told you that its a COMPLETE TRASH IDEA ! Why don't you listen the community for once and stop adding some restarted features? You won't balance anything this way, hell no ! 

 

 

HE IS A MANAGER MAN.. and not only that.. a community manager!

Edited

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