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Christian_Dodge

M4A3E2 "Jumbo" Sherman Designation

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Currently, it is designated as a heavy tank.

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A fairly common misconception, but the M4A3E2 is not a heavy tank, nor this mystical "assault tank" designation. "Assault tank" as a designation did not exist for the United States military. It was part of the vehicle's name/actual usage, but it was not the tank's classification.

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TM 9-2800 - Military Vehicles, dated 1947 — https://www.scribd.com/document/188375301/TM-9-2800-1947

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Development of Armored Vehicles, Volume I: Tanks, AGF Board No. 2, dated September 1, 1947 — http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll11/id/2071/rec/2

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U.S. Army Subsistence Experience in the European Theater of Operations, World War II, Part 2, dated November 1, 1945 — http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p4013coll8/id/500/rec/6

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The Role of the Army Ground Forces in the Development of Equipment, Army Ground Forces Study No. 34, dated 1946 — http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll8/id/4482/rec/5

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PB 17-90-5 - Armor magazine, dated September-October 1990 — https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/eARMOR/content/issues/1990/SEP_OCT/ArmorSeptemberOctober1990web.pdf

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AD-221598 - Summary Technical Report of Division II, NDRC, Volume 3, Fire Warfare, Incendiaries and Flame Throwers, dated 1946 — https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/221598.pdf

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TM 11-2748 - Installation of Radio and Interphone Equipment in Medium Tank M4A3 OR M4A3E2, 75-mm Gun, Wet Stowage; Medium Tank M4A1, M4A2, OR M4A3 76-mm Gun, Wet Stowage; Medium Tank M4 OR M4A3, 105-mm Howitzer, dated January 1945 — https://www.radionerds.com/images/3/3b/TM_11-2748_1945.pdf

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A Military Encyclopedia Based on Operations in the Italian Campaigns 1943-1945, Headquarters 15 Army Group Italy, dated 1945 — https://archive.org/details/AMilitaryEncyclopediaBasedOnOperationsInTheItalianCampaigns1943-1945/page/n2/mode/2up

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Catalogue of Standard Ordnance Items, Second Edition 1944, Volume I — http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/NewPDFs/USArmy/US military Technical and Field manuals/Standard.Ordnance.Items.Catalog.Vol.1.1944.pdf

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Kasserine Pass Battles, Doctrines and Lessons Learned, Volume II, Part 3 — https://history.army.mil/books/Staff-Rides/kasserine/Vol-II-Part_3.pdf

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P-581, Final Report on Test of Medium Tank, M4A3E2, Dec 29, 1944 — https://catalog.archives.gov/id/37295345

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In fact, this "heavy tank" is lighter than even the lightest version of the Panzerkampfwagen V "Panther" tanks.

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GermanSoldier    3,795
7 hours ago, Christian_Dodge said:

nor this mystical "assault tank" designation.

 

"Tank [] Assault" = assault tank

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4 times assault tank

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Again Assault tank

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I quiet dont get your point

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8 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

 

"Tank [] Assault" = assault tank

unknown.png

unknown.png

 

 

4 times assault tank

unknown.pngunknown.png

 

Again Assault tank

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I quiet dont get your point

16 hours ago, Christian_Dodge said:

It was part of the vehicle's name/actual usage, but it was not the tank's classification.

It's not called: Tank, Assault, M4A3E2 (75-mm Gun, Wet). It's called Tank, Medium, M4A3E2 (75-mm Gun, Wet) Assault. It is a tank, of the medium tank classification, and it's name is the M4A3E2 (75-mm Gun, Wet) Assault. For example:

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TM 9-2800 Standard Military Motor Vehicles, 1943 — https://archive.org/details/TM9-2800/mode/2up

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In fact, from one of the sources I listed originally:

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"Assault" is just part of the name of the vehicle, not the vehicle's classification. It's like if the M3 Lee was named M3 Assault Tank or something.

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GermanSoldier    3,795
3 hours ago, Christian_Dodge said:

not the vehicle's classification.

 

Read your own sources. Its very clearly a vehicle classification.

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1 hour ago, GermanSoldier said:

 

Read your own sources. Its very clearly a vehicle classification.

I hope I made it easier for you to read, grabbed the most obvious part of all of it.

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Or is the Tiger not really a tank, but an animal? I mean, Tiger is in its name after all. Is the M1A1 Heavy Armor Abrams actually a heavy tank? It has heavy in the name!

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GermanSoldier    3,795
13 hours ago, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

Why is this so important?

 

also still trying to figure this, not to mention that outside of the AT usage the game actually doesnt even claim that the Jumbo is a heavy tank

 

 

Now inb4 by this logic he also says the Hetzer and Jagdpanther should be in the same AT

Edited

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2 minutes ago, GermanSoldier said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

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Alright, so the M3 Lee is actually General Robert E. Lee raised from the dead too, right? It is not part of the classification, but you're choosing to ignore that fact I guess, despite that naming scheme matching other vehicles too. Name ≠ vehicle class.

 

13 hours ago, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

Why is this so important? It's classified as a heavy tank for the sake of US having two tanks using the HT resources just like all other factions.

I never said it was important. I've posted a thread about the "M1/M2 Carbine" being a designation as wrong too, which changes nothing but the name of the weapon. But honestly, a adjusted M4A3E2 (76mm, or even 75mm) would actually be way more balanced than a M4A3E8 fighting a Panther. Adjusted, as in nerfed armor protection (to better balance it against other mediums). It would also be correct in the designation sense too, because "muh German designation" on the Panther, despite having the armor of a heavy tank.

 

1 minute ago, GermanSoldier said:

also still trying to figure this, not to mention that outside of the AT usage the game actually doesnt even claim that the Jumbo is a heavy tank

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8 minutes ago, GermanSoldier said:

Now inb4 by this logic he also says the Hetzer and Jagdpanther should be in the same AT

I just want consistency. Panther is a medium by classification. It is a medium tank thanks to that. The Jumbo Sherman is a medium by classification. It is a heavy due to it's armor, despite the fact the Panther also has very comparable armor. That, and the fact that this forum is actually for:

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It's a historical inaccuracy, so I posted this to show that fact. I don't expect anything to get done about it, as there's actually no problem with the Jumbo Sherman being in the heavy class itself thanks to the massive artificial buff it has, which I think is ridiculous, but whatever.

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6 hours ago, Christian_Dodge said:

It's a historical inaccuracy

So is basically the entirity of the game. The Jumbo is there as a counter for the KV-85 and Tiger 1

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GermanSoldier    3,795
11 hours ago, Christian_Dodge said:

but you're choosing to ignore that

 

you are choosing to ignore that assault tank is literally written in your sources.

 

Its pretty clear that Medium tank M4A3E2 was build for the purpose of being an assault tank.

 

11 hours ago, Christian_Dodge said:

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This is merely the assault team it uses, not the tanks classification (and if we want to be literal, the Jumbo in american terms is heavy armor so it fits there very well).

 

11 hours ago, Christian_Dodge said:

It's a historical inaccuracy

 

assault teams are the historical inaccuracy in that case, not the tank or its designation, good luck fighting that (though youd have my support if youd try, since the assault team system has been limiting armor balancing for way to long)

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12 hours ago, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

So is basically the entirity of the game. The Jumbo is there as a counter for the KV-85 and Tiger 1

Yeah basically. But I recalled there being a tank cannon penetration thread somewhere, and this game for sure does not go by real penetration standards.

 

6 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

you are choosing to ignore that assault tank is literally written in your sources.

Its pretty clear that Medium tank M4A3E2 was build for the purpose of being an assault tank.

Yes, it was designed to assault positions that a normally armored Sherman would have great difficulty doing. But just because it is an up armored tank for assaulting positions, doesn't make it a "assault tank" by classification. The United States went by weight classification. Hence why the T26E3, the war-time designation for the M26 Pershing for almost the whole war, was called a heavy tank, as it was above 40.0 tons. It's also why the US considered the Panther a heavy tank too. The Jumbo Sherman is below that weight category, classing it as a medium tank.

Spoiler

Development of Armored Vehicles, Volume I: Tanks, AGF Board No. 2, dated September 1, 1947 — http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll11/id/2071/rec/2

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Do note that that's the Post-War weight classes, since the M26 Pershing is a medium by that system.

 

6 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

and if we want to be literal, the Jumbo in american terms is heavy armor so it fits there very well

Going by real life armor values, the Panther's hull is actually better protected too, by a few millimeters. Panther's mantlet armor is quite tricky to calculate, but the Jumbo is vastly superior in that category. Side armor, Jumbo wins too. Although the lower part of the side armor, the area where the tracks are, still has the "weak" 38.1mm of side armor of the M4A3 Shermans. We should be going by balance, not by "American terms." In a 1-on-1, both would need to aim for weak spots (albeit adjusted for balancing), rather than lolpenning the entire "top tier" M4A3E8 Sherman.

 

6 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

assault teams are the historical inaccuracy in that case, not the tank or its designation

Reto-Moto legitimately think it is a heavy tank too.

 

So it's not just an assault team problem. Otherwise the Panther could've easily been a heavy tank too.

Edited

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