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Jøhnson

German Recon Soldiers are Gebirgsjäger?

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Jøhnson    15

So I've recently been looking at the German recon character model, and it suddenly hit me. The cap isn't a badly modelled 1943 cap.

It's a Bergmütze. A German mountain troop version of the field cap, used prior to 1943 unlike the other cap which every branch of service eventually received. It had metal buttons and a longer peak, and the one ingame has wooden 4-hole buttons with a short peak, making it a mountain troop cap.

Spoiler

Z.png

The jacket is also not a regular infantry smock or parka. It's an anorak and anorak trousers, which were Gebirgs only. They did come in tan, feldgrau and seemingly some camouflage patterns so good on RETO. You can tell it's Gebirgs because of the three front pockets - Yeah, the recon model does have three - And the neck flap which is open on the ingame model.

The belt is just a regular undyed infantry belt seemingly, which should have two 7.92x57mm Patronentaschen as infantry do - Presumably Gebirgs would use those too although undyed/brown is a Luftwaffe/late war thing.

Spoiler

eng_pl_M42-Gebirgsjager-Winbluse-Anorak-s-l300.png

Then the boots - They appear to be Gebirgs mountain boots more than standard late-war low boots. I can't find what gaiters/puttees are being used, but I have seen them on Gebirgs re-enactors.

Edit: Seems that Gebirgs were issued field grey puttees, yeah.

Spoiler

image_b3c7a85c-cee5-472a-bac3-c268c13e4c

 

..why? RETO always makes extremely detailed and researched models/textures but always puts them in the wrong places.

Do you think German recon soldiers are based on Gebirgs? Have I just gotten it all wrong? Any idea why they'd do this?

Up until now I thought they were just going for late-war infantry. I can't unsee it now...

Edited

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GermanSoldier    3,795
7 hours ago, Jøhnson said:

They did come in tan, feldgrau and seemingly some camouflage patterns

 

They originally came only in white, quickly then in what is usually described as "field gray" so a mixed range between field gray and the mouse gray parka, reversible to white. And the odd eggshell white "tan" ofc also reversible to white.

 

They where actually not unique to the Gebirgsjäger (though early on when introduced in late 41/ early 42 they where intended to be) they where also "issued" to some other units and there is quiet a few pictures of other units (like Panzergrenadiers) using them.

 

7 hours ago, Jøhnson said:

although undyed/brown is a Luftwaffe/late war thing.

 

undyed/ brown is a pre war thing and stopped rather quickly, by the start of the war the only brown equipment to be seen was by those that ignored regulations and didnt blacken the leather.

 

7 hours ago, Jøhnson said:

Then the boots

 

They are the American service shoes, nothing fancy about it. The puttees are oddly colored "wickelgamaschen" (cant say these where to common, but im not totally great in topic regarding Gebirgsjäger to start with)

 

7 hours ago, Jøhnson said:

Do you think German recon soldiers are based on Gebirgs?

 

We dont need to guess, this is from the official post (2013) that reto made:

 

Quote

Notice the practical pockets in the front of the windbluse for ammo (and snacks), and the exclusion of all unnecessary accessories. The Recon soldier travels light, trading firepower and supplies for stealth and speed. No shiny helmet to give him away in the moonlight, but an M43 field cap, or bergmütze.

(arguably they did simply pot together the m43 and bergmütze, but for the untrained eye they are the same cap)

 

And to quote the offical Beta videolog:
"The German Recon is inspired by the Gebirgsjäger" 

 

7 hours ago, Jøhnson said:

always makes extremely detailed and researched models/textures

 

Not really. Especially when it comes to the soldiers models and textures. long story short they are pretty horrible (a lot of it i guess you can attribute to them being horribly outdated, but for a major part they are also not that well researched or thought out).

 

7 hours ago, Jøhnson said:

Any idea why they'd do this?

 

To vastly distinguish Recons from infantry which it shared uniforms with prior to the 2013 update

 

though arguably it even made no sense back then to go for the Egg colored mountain clothing and pit it against the USMCs P44 Camouflage HBTs when they could have instead worked with a normal infantry smock paired with a helmet cover or the SS dot44 HBTs.

 

I guess it was just in an effort to make something "cool" "unique" and "asymmetrically balanced" 

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Jøhnson    15
11 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

undyed/ brown is a pre war thing and stopped rather quickly, by the start of the war the only brown equipment to be seen was by those that ignored regulations and didnt blacken the leather

I know, the order to dye leather black came ~1939, but later in the war for economisation reasons they might look the other way, and also I have seen brown leather in Luftwaffe impressions/photos.

 

11 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

We dont need to guess, this is from the official post (2013) that reto made:

Could you link this please? I'd like to see if I can find any context around it, maybe ask them why

 

11 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

Not really. Especially when it comes to the soldiers models and textures. long story short they are pretty horrible (a lot of it i guess you can attribute to them being horribly outdated, but for a major part they are also not that well researched or thought out).

Badly thought out, yeah. But the insignia on the tunics, the stitching, the leather textures, even the canteen model are all good - Just put in the wrong places. Like the schulterklappen, if the collar is the same colour as the tunic they should technically be too, and removed on camo tunics.

 

11 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

To vastly distinguish Recons from infantry which it shared uniforms with prior to the 2013 update

A 1943 cap with a smock/parka would probably have done. It's what I thought it was prior to my big brain moment.

 

11 hours ago, GermanSoldier said:

They are the American service shoes, nothing fancy about it.

I've definitely heard of the capturing of Russian Sapogi boots, but mountain troops with American boots? Did Gebirgs even fight against the Americans on the Western Front commonly enough and at close enough of a range to capture boots enough to justify it being standard?

 

Thanks for your reply.

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GermanSoldier    3,795
51 minutes ago, Jøhnson said:

I have seen brown leather in Luftwaffe impressions/photos.

 

Well when it comes to impressions, 99,9% of people rocking brown leather are doing field division impressions. And at least 90% of these late war (past 44), for which brown leather is simply incorrect to use.

On pictures, its incredibly rare to actually see brown leather in use (not saying it didnt happen) so tbh, id stay away from brown leather for any wartime model / impression.

 

1 hour ago, Jøhnson said:

link

 

Spoiler

News post for German recon

https://heroesandgenerals.com/2013/09/new-german-recon-uniform/

 

News post for the US recon

https://heroesandgenerals.com/2013/09/new-us-recon-uniform/

 

The Leeb video Log

 

 

1 hour ago, Jøhnson said:

Badly thought out, yeah.

 

Well there is a lot of things that are not well made, or straight up incorrect. The German and US infantry are on the better side of things for that, but as soon as we are talking textures the soldiers are in a pretty bad state. And im not even yet talking about just slapping camouflage on uniforms that wouldnt be camouflaged for one or another reason.

 

Model wise they are pretty alright for what they are, but the textures and  camouflages (plus what they are on) are in dire need of a total rework

 

1 hour ago, Jøhnson said:

but mountain troops with American boots?

 

I think theyve just taken them for the slight similarity (eg. them being brown while lacking an actual german lowboot model) to avoid having to make another boot model.

 

As for availability or use? America lendleased boots to the Soviets, and the US fought Gebirgsjäger in italy as far as im concerned.  Though i would argue that almost any other boot would be inferior to a well made mountain boot so i dont see why a Gebirgsjäger would take US service shoes over any german boot (unless they are broken and he cant get new boots).

 

1 hour ago, Jøhnson said:

1943 cap with a smock/parka would probably have done. It's what I thought it was prior to my big brain moment.

 

Well as i said, i think taking a simple Heer smock and a Heer helmet cover would have been the better choice, slap Splitter on it and done.

Alternatively an M43 cap and a hooded Sumpftarn smock. Or SS camouflage HBTs paired with a camouflage cap or an m43.

 

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Jøhnson    15
1 hour ago, GermanSoldier said:

The German and US infantry are on the better side of things

lol absolutely, the Soviet infantry uniform is so bad with its camos I can't even look at USSR infantry anymore - The equipment and shoulder boards are incorrect for standard infantry in combat I think, none of the camos were used more than like once and the helmet covers are loosely based off of SSh-68 ones. At least German infantry get gas mask cans and patronentaschen.

 

1 hour ago, GermanSoldier said:

Splitter

This makes me solid. This word.

Why don't recon have Splitter anyway, it was the most used Wehrmacht camouflage aside from feldgrau itself and arguably Sumpf? But they get Leibermuster, which is actually a 1945 pattern, and I've read that HnG is set in 1944.

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Jøhnson    15
1 hour ago, _Finnish_Gamemaster_ said:

very late 1945 in the minimum, mid 1990s max considering the amount of post-war stuff.

By late 1945, I assume you mean the last few days of the war?

I'd put it to the 70s, I'll give RETO that.

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GermanSoldier    3,795
On 12/7/2019 at 3:37 PM, Jøhnson said:

Why don't recon have Splitter anyway, it was the most used Wehrmacht camouflage aside from feldgrau itself and arguably Sumpf? But they get Leibermuster, which is actually a 1945 pattern

 

Pretty much beyond me. Not that Retos splitter is accurate (sadly it isnt for anything but the green splitter on the para) but i guess its for the same reason you cant get amoeba on the soviet infantry

 

To quickly pick on the rarity, splitter is probably the most common camouflage of the entire war, because it was essentially issued to everyone (outside of the ss. And even there is some units that had it at one point or another), Sumpftarn was more rare since it was only really issued via (hooded) smocks and the reversible winter sets.

 

Its kind of sad though that both patterns get overshadowed by a Leiber, a pattern that was essentially only used by one unit in 1945.

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